What could help young coaches?

[altius]

While PVP has provided a forum for many iconoclasts to deconstruct the Petrov/Bubka model and others to tell us how it can be improved, I am not sure how much this has helped the vast majority of athletes and coaches who visit this site. Probably the most valuable area to many has been the Video section where some of our experienced coaches have tried to help young athletes - and hopefully their coaches - to improve their understanding of the vault.

I believe it would be a valuable exercise if coaches would post video of one or more of their athletes, providing as much detail as necessary about their physical parameters and progress, but then going on to outline what they believe the strengths and weaknesses of the athlete to be before indicating how they are trying to them to improve. It could almost become a longitudinal study.

Clearly every person would have to contribute in good faith - because this can be a scary process - but I believe one with great possibilities to help coaches learn. Someone once said that a book can open up a whole world of experience for the reader -something of the kind of I am proposing might do the same for coaches as they see how their colleagues are working to resolve similar problems to the ones they face.

Just a thought!

[altius]

Just a thought!

Obviously not s very good one!!!

[KirkB]

Just a thought!

Obviously not a very good one!!!

I think it's a good idea, it's just that this is what we've already been doing, isn't it?

Those coaches that wish to post and ask for advice already do this. And I think they usually get pretty good advice.

I don't think we need to "organize" or "formalize" this any more than what's already happening on PVP.

If you're a PV coach, then just keep posting vids and asking questions - as you have already been doing. And if you haven't yet, then just give it a go.

Kirk

[altius]

I thought we needed something a bit more than the black magic approach to coaching that is typical of what happens at present. But obviously I don't understand what coachers need if they are to improve their understanding and analysis of training and technique. I stand corrected.

[VaultPurple]

I will try and get this going Alan. I am by no means an old coach, I would probably fall into that young coach category, but I think I have stolen a few good tricks over the past few years from some pretty good coaches.

I am going to post a series of videos following the top male vaulter that I coach from senior year of high school until now. One of the key things I have realized over the past four years is that a lot of progression just comes with more confidences in the event as well as with technical changes. This is why I try and let younger vaulters jump more, they just need more jumps under their belt. Sprinting with a pole is not normal, it is awkward at first and takes years before you can do it close to maximum effort without hesitation.

Senior Year of High School (2010) Best jump 14'8:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3A9yDMK2qoQ

Biggest problems. Does not break left arm to get close to the pole at the end of the jump and is forced to cut trail leg and invert under the hands instead of swinging on top of the pole. Also runs with a very slow high knee start and stretches at the end of the run. Not getting to full speed or on big enough poles (I do not think he ever used a 15' pole in high school).

Freshman Year of College (2011) Best Jump 4.67m (15'4):

I try and focus on a continuous vault. Taking the energy from the run and having it transfer smoothly through the swing and off the end of the pole. The athlete should not try and swing to upside down, they should try and swing up and off the top of the pole.

To work on jumping up I had him do a lot of straight pole drills at the beginning of the year. The following video you can see a nice long trail leg, but he still wants to cut it to shoot up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNa6zw_V7ec

The following video has his PR from freshman year

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wACxsqeSBPM

The biggest issues with this jump are that he is still not confident driving out of the back of his run so he is over striding into take off. He is not really under too often, but is flat and can not have a strong chest drive to move the pole up and forward. Tends to get stuck in the middle of the swing and has to turn off real early.

Sophomore Year (2012) PR 4.80:

Video is of 4.75 indoor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRyKfW4iXvY

He is doing a better job keeping the trail leg straight all the way through on some jumps, but still has trouble letting his chest come through at take off and instead of swinging all the way to the top of the pole he keeps his upper body upright too long (not being elastic enough in the shoulders) and kind of crunches upside down.

Junior Year (2013) PR 4.90m:

First meet of the year, 5 step 4.76m

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKT-2ezAiFM

He is finally starting to get better swinging all the way through the top of the pole, focusing on not pausing. It is important to swing off the end so you do not stop and have to have the pole pick you up. Still needs to get the pole moving better right off the ground and to have a better transition of the left arm when moving through to vertical. He still hesitates a bit and causes a blocking motion that keeps the pole from rolling in.

He finally gets his left arm out of the way when swinging through at this meet and goes 4.90m

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsXQ-XeKhfI

The start of the run could be better which makes him stretch at the end. He is also still a little hesitate at the plant which makes getting on bigger poles difficult. Needs to focus on running off the take off better and not carrying the pole at the end of the run which makes him stretch

The following drill is my favorite drill. The video is him doing it a year ago (he has gotten better). The focus is to push the pole as deep as possible off the ground and swing long all the way off the back of the mat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzpmTD8exK4

He is actually blocking a little by pushing the left arm too much out, but this drill gets him used to being more elastic in the shoulders and learning to let his body come through after a big plant. In this particular video he blocks a little and is somewhat flat at take off. He has gotten better about planting taller and letting his chest come through at the start, but I need a updated video.

He red shirted outdoors 2013 to do a lot of the drill in the above video. Worked on pushing bigger and bigger poles as deep as he could and swinging continuously off the end of the pole. Never went past 5 lefts outdoors but focused on getting on bigger 15' poles from a 5 (Previously would not move to 15' poles until a 7).

Redshirt-Junior year (2014) PR 5.20m:

The start of the year had some more straight poling to see if he could keep that left leg long all the way off the top of the pole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU8l9MyqW4I

Finally stopped breaking the left leg to pop his hips up (like he does in the video from freshman year).

One thing we actually did a lot more of this fall was 7 left approaches. In the past we did not go to a 7 until January. He started jumping from 7 in November just to work on getting the feel of it since it had been a while. Key change: No more slow to fast run. 7 lefts: Strong and powerful to pick up speed for 2 lefts, fast and tall to get in position for 3 lefts, turn em over and flay through the last 2 lefts.

First indoor meet in December (5.05m)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrravryQ6jY

He is actually a little under and the pole is too soft but he does a good job being elastic through his arms when inverting so that he swing sup and off instead of getting stuck trying to get to vertical. The initial pressure at take off is pretty weak as well. That is one of the reasons that pole sends him up instead of in, even though it is soft.

The following video is his 5.20 jump.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgv5u6Dbcbc

Much better initial pressure at the take off, both arms are up high and strong over his head. He does a good job keeping the trail leg straight all the way around, and is able to smoothly work through the top of the pole by being patient and keep working up as the pole unbends. I actually feel as if this pole may have been slightly soft and sank a bit when he was swinging. That sink made him have to get off a split second early to keep it from rolling in to far.

Key coaching aspects

I just highlighted the key jumps in the career of one of the top vaulters I coach. I follow the same basic principles with all of the athletes I coach and could do pretty much the same breakdown for all of them and it would look similar.

I have always been a fan of Alan's term 'black magic coaching'. Because the truth is, there is no magic bullet. It is all about doing the little things correctly, a million times. We do a lot of high bar drills, but usually stick to the basics. Lots of gymnastics are fun and help with body control, but pole vault is really not that complicated. If you can master the basics, you can be a pretty good vaulter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdq4dxVpZdU

The start of the year always has a lot of straight pole jumping to learn how to have a continuous swing without tucking. And I really like using swing through drills on softer poles to work on moving a pole fast and swinging off the end. Please note that this drill only works if you have a big enough mat or stack high jump pits behind the pole vault pit.

[altius]

Thanks VP - I feel much better now!

[altius]

Love those long swings -glad to see your work to extend the pit has paid off. Good steady progress. Cant see the 5.20 well enough to comment -but would like to see film of him in that range. Happy to comment then if you like.

[altius]

Well Kirk - have bit more time so I will comment further on this issue. Note that this is not directed at you other than to suggest that you are wrong in believing the kind of instant advice offered is of great value to the athletes and coaches who ask for and get it. I have seen the same questions come up time and again and the same faults repeated time and again -with often the same trite solutions offered time and again. What you are offering in your instant feedback is black magic coaching and the sooner young athletes and coaches understand that improvement does not come from a simple 'tip' or single piece of advice - no matter how well intentioned - the better. It is a process like the process outlined by VP. It requires a commitment to a specific model of vaulting, an understanding of that model and the way drills link to that model. It demands repetition and persistence as you undertake those drills; and almost every athlete - no matter what their apparent problem should go back to those drills on a daily basis.

The idea that an athlete can process new feedback into their technique while they continue to jump from a full run is a nonsense – it certainly cannot be done if -as there invariably are - problems with the run, plant and take off. That is why I suspect that many of the clinics run around the country - and I have been close enough to some to know what I am talking about - are a waste of space because they follow that pattern. As quickly as possible athletes are jumping from their full run - and often continue to do so for two days - while the coach hurls out advice -to do this, to change to this, or even worse to not do this - that is wrong!. Apart from anything else how do young athletes translate YOUR wisdom into their practice and performance? Do they really understand the words or cues you use? I doubt it because almost every coach - even those attempting to use the same model - almost invariably uses different cue words or phrases that the athlete has to interpret. That is why the instant coaches who appear on the sidelines of almost every competition to throw out unasked for advice to athletes they have ever seen before - are a pest! They can only confuse the issue. But they do not know enough to know how little they know.

Not only I have seen this, but it has been reported to me by many athletes attending the clinics I have run in the USA over the past few years. Youngsters who have attended the clinics run by many well known coaches all tell the same story and are simply amazed that this is not what we do – a few are confused and occasionally a parent becomes agitated that their child – for example a girl jumping 10’8” , being required to learn to learn how to carry and run with the pole properly – and god - forbid - do take off drills in a sand pit. That the group have just been shown video of Isinbayeva doing those same drills is apparently ignored!

But the evidence is that the vast majority of youngsters begin to understand that if they want to become better vaulters they must first understand enough about the vault to help themselves improve – and they must learn to take responsibility for their own development. That means getting a high bar put up in the barn or wherever – begging, borrowing or stealing a pole and doing all of the basic run up and plant drills in their own time at home so that when they do get time on a pad they can use it more productively.

VPs example outlines the process of development over time. There are no short cuts – no matter how good the analysis is or how clever the words one uses are.

I am not beginning a fight with you but I simply disagree with the position you suggested above. It probably comes down the fact that I am a practicing coach and you are not . I know how tough this business is - I don’t think you do. Again as always, I challenge you and anyone else who wants to offer advice here to actually coach youngsters – because that experience will continually remind you that this is a process – a process that takes months, even years. It is certainly not a matter of waving a magic wand – a delusion that devalues what real coaches do, their effort, their commitment, and their passion. As I always tell my athletes, “If it was easy, anyone could do it – but while is it is simple it certainly isn’t easy. ” The same applies to coaching, but then, what do I know.

MY solution would be to recommend that if these coaches and athletes really want to learn something they read the relevant chapters in BTB2 and buy the DVD - but if I do that I will be accused of advertising! Amazing really, in the country that invented that process! So why don't you produce a small document for PVP that contains the essence of YOUR approach to teaching this event and make it available pro bono on PVP. Of course you could always spend four years of your life and lots of money producing your own book. But I don't see too many folk rushing forward to do that. It’s far easier to stand back and criticize some who has – and Kirk don’t take that personally either.

Finally I would still love to see more brave folk take up this opportunity to share their experience. You might find that – like preparing a PHD dissertation -
you discover that you know much more that you thought you did and/or that there are a few things you need to improve.

[KirkB]

Well Kirk - have bit more time so I will comment further on this issue. Note that this is not directed at you other than to suggest that you are wrong in believing the kind of instant advice offered is of great value to the athletes and coaches who ask for and get it.

You're not going to get much of an argument from me here, as I agree with just about everything you said here.

I would even go so far as to say that the kinds of suggestions you're making are similar to the kinds of things that I've been suggesting - that THERE IS NO BLACK MAGIC, and that Rome wasn't built in a day. If you've read my posts particularly in the past couple weeks, you will have noticed that theme. I notice that CoachEric has picked up on this too, so now we have all 3 of us in agreement.

Honestly, I don't recall saying "you are wrong in believing the kind of instant advice offered is of great value to the athletes and coaches who ask for and get it". My post above doesn't say that at all!

In fact, I've cautioned many, many posters over the years that they really should seek out or discuss the topic they're asking about with a real-live coach - in person, because that's where the athlete gets immediate feed-back, based on the more intimate experience of standing beside the runway when the athlete is jumping. All this PVP advice stuff is a far cry from REAL coaching! And in private IMs (which you're not aware of), I've also said this many, many times to many, many kids asking for one-on-one personal help.

No, I'm NOT offering my personal advice via IM to individual kids - but they still ask! Quite often, I suggest that they post their question(s) publicly, so that other cyber-coaches can also offer advice. Often they do.

Secondly, I really liked the idea of the coaching clinics that you've done over the years (sorry we never did hook up - I almost made it to your Portland clinic with Rick Baggett a couple years ago, but didn't quite make it) - and to me, THAT is second best to regular coaching, day by day and week by week. I understand you're not able to travel much any more due to your health, but I hope you have passed that torch on to some of the American coaches (like Rick) that attended or hosted your clinics.

So I was slightly surprised that you suggested what you did at the top of this thread, as I really consider this type of internet coaching as inferior to these real-life alternatives.

You see how we're saying the same things - perhaps just in different words?

I have seen the same questions come up time and again and the same faults repeated time and again -with often the same trite solutions offered time and again. What you are offering in your instant feedback is black magic coaching and the sooner young athletes and coaches understand that improvement does not come from a simple 'tip' or single piece of advice - no matter how well intentioned - the better. you are wrong in believing the kind of instant advice offered is of great value to the athletes and coaches who ask for and get it is a process like the process outlined by VP.

It requires a commitment to a specific model of vaulting, an understanding of that model and the way drills link to that model. It demands repetition and persistence as you undertake those drills; and almost every athlete - no matter what their apparent problem should go back to those drills on a daily basis.

I couldn't agree with you more. But you MAY be arguing from both sides of your mouth, since you quite frequently offer tidbits of advice - as do I.

The idea that an athlete can process new feedback into their technique while they continue to jump from a full run is a nonsense – it certainly cannot be done if -as there invariably are - problems with the run, plant and take off.

I couldn't agree with you more.

... That means getting a high bar put up in the barn or wherever – begging, borrowing or stealing a pole and doing all of the basic run up and plant drills in their own time at home so that when they do get time on a pad they can use it more productively.

Yes! Have I mentioned highbar work recently?

... There are no short cuts – no matter how good the analysis is or how clever the words one uses are.

Yup. Rome wasn't built in a day.

I am not beginning a fight with you but I simply disagree with the position you suggested above. It probably comes down the fact that I am a practicing coach and you are not . I know how tough this business is - I don’t think you do. Again as always, I challenge you ...

Actually, I DO know how tough "this business is". I did my fair share of in-person coaching - back in the day, with excellent results (which you can search for on PVP). Not sure what your challenge has to do with my comments on this post (you may just be rambling), but I probably won't be coaching in person any more - been there, done that, and I now have too many grandchildren that take precedence over my interest in PV. But I appreciate the suggestion (not that I didn't consider the possibility on my own).

MY solution would be to recommend that if these coaches and athletes really want to learn something they read the relevant chapters in BTB2 and buy the DVD ...

I don't know if you recall, but I DID buy your book and DVD. And I've recommended it to many, many people over the years.

... So why don't you produce a small document for PVP that contains the essence of YOUR approach to teaching this event and make it available pro bono on PVP. ...

I don't know if you remember, but I DID produce "a small document for PVP" about 10 years ago. It's called the "Bryde Bend" thread! You may not remember, but I did that in response to your challenge to me back then to do so! But it was about my technical model - not about my approach to "teaching this event".

I won't be taking you up on this most recent challenge, because I honestly don't think that my expertise is in my teaching methods - in fact I KNOW it isn't. You and CoachEric (as well as many, many other coaches that offer advice on PVP) offer much better advice than me about TEACHING methods.

It’s far easier to stand back and criticize some who has – and Kirk don’t take that personally either.

Well, I do take that a LITTLE personally, as you seem to be accusing me of criticizing you. Far from it! All I said that seemed to get your shirt in a knot is that I didn't think we needed to formalize the process of people asking for advice on PVP based on their PV vids, because that's essentially what we already do!

Finally I would still love to see more brave folk take up this opportunity to share their experience. You might find that – like preparing a PHD dissertation -
you discover that you know much more that you thought you did and/or that there are a few things you need to improve.

Yeh, thanks VP! Also thanks to Grandevaulter and others who regularly post vids of their young vaulters and ask for comments - but not on this particular thread. I guess that's my point! We're already doing vid reviews! So I'm not sure what we're arguing about.

Kirk

[altius]

"I didn't think we needed to formalize the process of people asking for advice on PVP based on their PV vids, because that's essentially what we already do!" If you look at the detailed response above it is in a different class to what 'we already do' - i.e. offer titbits of advice. In fact the coach involved has not asked for any advice - so I haven't offered any.

It is an outline of the process a coach has gone through with a specific athlete over several years. I suspect that it is the first of its kind on PVP - I believe this exercise has value but accept that this can only be established by the number of folk who are prepared to put the time and effort to undertake it..

I suppose as much as anything I was concerned about the amount of advice being offered that only addressed the obvious symptom of a problem but did not address the cause - or really provide solutions. Solutions that in my experience are only to be found in well executed drills and an effective training problem -not tit bits of advice that the athlete can not understand anyway. A critical point that is being missed here - is not what the athlete did - but what are they trying to do. Do they have a coherent technical model in their head as they train -to what extent does what they are doing differ from that technical model. We may be offering great advice on how to build a kayak but THEY are really trying to build a paddle boat. Just a thought.

[KirkB]

We may be offering great advice on how to build a kayak but THEY are really trying to build a paddle boat.

Yeh, good point. Guilty as charged.

Kirk