What’s the deal with Pole Carry?

[agapit]

We know there is a certain outcome when we multiply 2x2 and the answer is always 4. Is there a certain way to carry the pole on the runway?

What are the things one should consider? After all, if we attempt to train that element, we all need to know what we are trying to achieve.

There are a variety of pole carry methods thought the history of pole vault, but it seems that in the past two decades it somewhat standardized. If you pick a few elite athletes, you can find many that carry the pole almost identical, from the pre run set to actual pole carry in the run.

What are they trying to do or is it just a coincident?

If you look at anyone’s pole carry what would be the analysis points? What should we look for?

It would be interesting to hear everyone’s opinion on that. It could be a helpful discussion.

I offered my take on the subject. A new member section “Pole Carry” is published on http://www.m640.com

[altius]

I wish you hadn't done that Roman!!!! We already have PV Daddy, Coacheric and Kirk pontificating on almost every aspect of the Petrov/McBryde technical model over the last few weeks when it is clear that between them they coach only a handful of athletes vaulting almost beginner heights. I can excuse Kirk because he is an intelligent guy who bases his thoughts on his own experiences as an elite vaulter of the time - although I would much prefer to learn about how he is applying his obvious understanding of this event to helping others begin to master it. Cant excuse PV daddy because he is intelligent enough to know he is on an ego trip and I can't excuse Coach Eric because for some reason I think he is riding on someone else's shirttails - but has not made that clear.

With PVDaddy and Coach eric I can only say that I will only begin to take you seriously when you show proof of how you have used your understanding of the event to develop athletes. This is not a difficult task - BTB shows that 15/17 year old girls with relatively little talent and time for training can jump 12' within two years after being introduced to the petrov/Bubka model from the very beginning. Boys can jump 14' in the same time frame and 16' plus inside four years - again with limited training time. In fact all over the US, youngsters are reaching these sorts of heights - if they were ALL being introduced to the Petrov model they would get there quicker and continue to go higher.

I repeat that it is easy to parrot what Petrov or Bubka have said, to rewrite it, to paraphrase it or even to claim it as you own unique thought - because who is going to bother to check up on you in this environment. I hate to hit on any committed coach but this charade has gone on too long. To find you folk debating issues with a REAL coach like Danny Is mind boggling - I have been amazed at his patience.

Go away and coach some/many athletes -there are plenty out there needing help. Then come back and tell us how your theoretical understanding of this event stacks up in the real world. As cleverer men before me have said, the best way to understand something is to try and teach it to others. If you are not going to do that, but persist in discussion of arcane elements of technique that will take you nowhere and may well confuse other novice coaches looking for some semblance of wisdom, then I am not reading it. I suspect many others have already given up!

Don't bother to bite back folks - I stand by my contribution to this event - and because of that I do not take you seriously. Again I say go away and coach - talk with hundreds of other coaches( the chances are you won't get to Petrov) but you can easily get to Botcharnikov, Sean Brown, Baggett, Isaacs, Magula, Sparks, Allison, Cooper, Jeremy and Larren Bailey, Vinson, Milton, Phil Ericson - only the second US coach to come to OZ - Adelaide Melbourne and Perth! Rusty Shealey, Daniel Bertolami and the list goes on - ask (do not attempt to tell them what they are doing wrong please) as many athletes as you can why they are doing what they are doing - then write YOUR own book about your understanding of this great event.

[agapit]

I wish you hadn't done that Roman!!!!

Sorry, I miss this point completely.

But new member section "Pole Carry" is up since last night on http://www.m640.com the next section "Run & Posture" has expected publication date on May 22nd.

Cheers!

P.S. Quote from m640.com (full text at http://m640.com/m640)

"M604 MODEL IS NOT CO-AUTHORED, REVIEWED OR ENDORSED BY VITALLY PETROV, SERGEY BUBKA OR ANY OTHER. ALL DEVELOPMENTS AND IDEAS PUT FORWARD IN M640 MODEL ARE ORIGINAL IDEAS BASED ON MY PERSONAL RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT, COACHING AND PUBLISHING OF THE LAST THREE DECADES."

[altius]

I realise that the complexities of the English language are a bit beyond a former T72 tank driver but I wish you hadn't done it because you will only encourage these folk to indulge themselves yet again in claim,counter claim, counter attack and so on.

Re your site - I only can only tell everyone concerned that if they want to learn something about the vault from some one who both understands the theory and - most importantly - really is a great practical coach I suggest that you immediately join it agape's site. There are some flash sites around - with all the bells and whistles - but that is all pretend stuff IMHO. Roman, aka Agapit, is the real deal.

[CoachEric]

Why don’t you cool it with the personal attacks altius. You don’t have a monopoly on information.

I've put forth a lot of effort to articulate the mechanics of the vault as I understand them to help others, and to enhance my own understanding through that effort. Others here are taking the same approach. Meanwhile, you have made personal attacks while resting exclusively on laurels of past coaching achievements without bothering to share your own expertise unless it’s accompanied by a book pitch.

It's also bad form to demand video from everyone with an opinion. I already went through the rigmarole of posting videos at your request. But we don't devote our time to this sport or these athletes for your benefit, so leave it alone.

[agapit]

I realise that the complexities of the English language are a bit beyond a former T72 tank driver but I wish you hadn't done it because you will only encourage these folk to indulge themselves yet again in claim,counter claim, counter attack and so on.

Re your site - I only can only tell everyone concerned that if they want to learn something about the vault from some one who both understands the theory and - most importantly - really is a great practical coach I suggest that you immediately join it agape's site. There are some flash sites around - with all the bells and whistles - but that is all pretend stuff IMHO. Roman, aka Agapit, is the real deal.

The check is in the mail

[PV2020]

Altius, you are never going to fix the high school coaching problem in the USA. There are 50 states, some with 100 coaches, some with 0. Essentially in most places as long as you are willing to buy poles you are going to have the best vaulters so you can just coach any way you feel like it and win.

There are a few good coaches that volunteer their time at high school and college level but most people that want to coach and have a true passion for it at a young age are trying to make it at the college level. These guys, if they believe in the petrov model have it tougher than anyone. Altius and his book preach petrov but he also coached high school kids. As elite as they may be, most of them he got relatively young in their career and they did not have years of mistakes engraved in them.

Altius, you throw punches left and right about bad coaching (especially high school coaches you do not even know). But at the high school level it quite literally comes down to who is willing to coach, and guess what, sometimes something is better than nothing. And just because someone has a new idea or different opinion does not make them wrong, just different.

Video also solves nothing. I have seen really good coaches that coach Petrov have pole vaulters that do have vaults that resemble the petrov modle. They got a 16' kid out of high school and instead of completely breaking them down and having them go into a state of mental depression from sucking for two years, they let them start off jumping similar to how they did in high school, and they slowly incorporate new ideas into them. They may never resemble a vault that looks like Bubka's but they get pretty good (18-19). I think one of the best examples of this are videos of Jason Colwick from rice. I do not think anyone would ever accuse Dave Butler of being a bad coach, and I do not think too many people would look at Colwick without being like "there is something different about that". But hey it worked for him. Maybe he would have been better putting his right knee up, maybe he refused, I was not there while he was being coached to judge.

You talk about the Australian kids having limited talent but then kids reaching 17'8 ect. But then you blame USA coaches for having a limited scope of thinking for thinking a 18'6 national champion is good, and that we need to change everything to get 6.05 vaulters.

But how many of those Australian kids ever went on to jump 6.05? You can always speculate that that 17'8 guy in the USA would go 19'10 if they were trained by petrov from birth, but how many people has that actually worked with?

Pole vaulters are weird, elite athletes are weird, I have had team mates that were 10x greater athletes than I could have ever hoped to be that could not do a straight pole drill no matter if Petrov himself was right there telling them, they just couldn't get it, while other less athletic team members could do them perfect. I have seen guys that can run 10.9 in the 100 that could not grip over 14'6 (4.45m) and I have seen a freshman on my team grip 15'6 who could barely put one foot in front of the other when walking.

Sometimes stuff don't make since!

[KirkB]

Why don’t you cool it with the personal attacks altius.

Ditto.

I've made my position very clear as to why I have disagreed with PVDaddy in the past, and why I have agreed with CoachEric. To paint us all with the same brush seems particularly abrasive, especially because your rant seems to be pointed mostly against PVDaddy. Your aim is off.

We already have PV Daddy, Coacheric and Kirk pontificating on almost every aspect of the Petrov/McBryde technical model over the last few weeks when it is clear that between them they coach only a handful of athletes vaulting almost beginner heights. I can excuse Kirk because he is an intelligent guy who bases his thoughts on his own experiences as an elite vaulter of the time ...

Thanks Altius (I think), but this sounds too much like a back-handed compliment to me - especially since you purposely mispelled my name.

FYI, I don't coach ANY vaulters in the brick-and-mortar world right now, but when I did coach, they were not beginners - they were some of the best HS vaulters in Greater Vancouver at the time, and I've already mentioned that several of them went on to win Canadian Championships, with one of them getting an Olympic Bronze in the Decathlon (Dave Steen).

But in case you hadn't noticed, I HAVE been helping a few vaulters on PVP recently (and you have too), so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. While PVDaddy NEEDS that real-world experience, I have already lived it and (as far as I know) CoachEric is living it now. So please don't lump us all together.

I've also made my position very clear as to my recommendation of YOUR book, and you seem to be biting the hand that feeds you. Ducking now, to avoid yet another grenade headed in my direction, telling me that you make peanuts on the book so my recommendations mean nothing to you. There, I beat you to it!

I know this is your position, because of your persistent unflattering comments about American coaches, yet they're the ones that buy your book!

In PVD's defense, he has recently come clean re his past rant-posts, he's "toned it down", and he now sincerely appears to be trying to practice what he preaches - EXACTLY AS YOU SUGGESTED TO HIM! Kudos to PVDaddy for going out in the real world and HELPING KIDS!

So I think your comments pointed in his direction are also a little untimely and unfair, to say the least.

Kirk

[agapit]

I think the original post was about evaluating pole carry and the new member section "Pole Carry" on http://www.m640.com

[grandevaulter]

I suggest that we check out Roman's web site and then go up to the coaches forum and tell a good story about coaching a young athlete. Humorous or inspiring.

[altius]

"Altius, you throw punches left and right about bad coaching (especially high school coaches you do not even know)."

Well now you have that out of your system I would really appreciate it if you could find examples of where I, "have criticised high school coaches that I do not even know." Since you must mean that I have done so on pvp it should be pretty easy to find examples. But if you do not find any - I really would appreciate an apology!

What I have often said - and I hope Becca will bear this out - "There are many good coaches in the USA - just not enough of them". Then if you take a look at another post I put up in the past few days you will the following names listed as folk who in my opinion are - AMONG OTHERS - good coaches in the USA - Baggett, Daniel Isaacs, Kevin Magula, Bubba Sparks, Kris Allison, Jeremy and Larren Bailey, Vinson, Todd Cooper, Rusty Shealy, Kyle Bishop, Jerry Cahill, Daniel Bertolami,Tim McMichael, Rick Attig and the list goes on - and these are folk whom I mostly have already worked with or am going to - Magula and Vinson - this summer, Since the ones I have worked with are also good friends it would suggest that I have little problem with US coaches nor they with me. Apologies to those other friends whom I have omitted - old timers is a real phenomenon!

What I have also said repeatedly on PVP -an issue that you identified - is that US vaulters are crucified by a system that virtually requires them to change coaches twice or even three times in their career -whereas I had the luxury of working through with my kids - BUT DID NOT HAVE THE LUXURY OF A SCHOLARSHIP SYSTEM - or even a decent competition program to keep them motivated.

In fact you will find that I rarely criticise any coaches - although I do often point out that many college athletes are -as Don Hood would have said "Are being condemned to mediocrity" by poor coaching.

[altius]

Just a thought - I do understand the Jason Colnwick story because his original coach I believe was Kris Allison - a friend of mine. When I was in New Braunfels a year or so ago Kris told me that he had tried to change Jason but it became clear that that was Jason's way and it was impossible to change him -he was ready to quit apparently - so Kris went with the flow. Obviously that continued at Rice. Although given David Butler's commitment to the Petrov approach I was very surprised that he recruited Jason - because on the basis of what Kris had said he was never going to represent that model. My own view is that it would inevitably cause issues because you can only have one model in a squad - and the whole squad should be committed to that model - In that way always learning as they watch each other vault. But NCAA points are important I suppose. Incidentally the issue went well beyond what Jason did or didn't do with the right leg at take off - he had a completely different concept of the vault in his mind - that was what was difficult/impossible to change --- altering the right knee would have been easy.