flagging out!!!!!

[mcm123]

ok so i have been working on my trail leg alot and its rlly helping with getting inverted, but my problem is that i don't break my elbow enough so it causes me to flag out and not thrust my hips in....any tricks or tips you guys have that could help with that?

[crayford]

1) Post a video

2) Be less vague

3) Stop looking at the bar (this is the biggest problem for intermediate jumpers in my area)

4) Scroll through the boards and see that there have been many jumpers with similar situations; the problem tends to lie with either your bottom arm or your plant/takeoff


For a "quick fix" you can always try pulling after you complete your takeoff; if you search for "what does the bottom arm do," though you'll see a lot of debate on this topic

[Andy_C]

For a "quick fix" you can always try pulling after you complete your takeoff; if you search for "what does the bottom arm do," though you'll see a lot of debate on this topic

Please do not be very vague with THIS statement!

While the mechanics of the bottom arm pull is quite sound in my opinion, I still have a lot of questions in my mind as to how effectively your ordinary coach can teach it to any ordinary athlete. This is made much worse by trying to teach it over the internet. The actual biomechanics of it has been well thought out but the learning process is still a question mark in my mind until I see this technique executed by not only elite athletes but beginners as well. If it can be taught to beginners en masse then it can be taught effectively. However for the purposes of the high school vaulter who don't train 6-7 days a week at an elite facility, I would not try to introduce something which is extremely unlikely to be learned properly based on the circumstances - as opposed to something tried and true which is simple to teach and easy to achieve. It's a case of going somewhere vs going nowhere (or perhaps backwards if learned poorly enough!). Also, the bottom arm pull can only be effective provided that everything else has gone well, especially the take off which is what I'm guessing is going on here.

My advice for flagging out - yes, looking at the bar is common, but make sure you're not taking off under first. Every time I read about this problem and I see a subsequent video, I find from personal experience I see that almost all of the time the take off is under. The best coaches I've seen with aim out with every jump and this takes precedence over just about everything else. If there is a problem with the take off spot, that (and anything that attributes to that) gets attention before anything else. How far out one should take off depends on the vaulter, not everybody can manage a big jump out. If you ask me though, typically about 3 inches out is achievable by anybody, even beginners (and I've seen quite a few who are capable of this) provided that they've been trained well. And training for this means learning to jump out from 2 steps (1 left), then 4 steps (2 lefts), 6 steps ect. pulling the run up back while still maintaining the good take off spot. The body needs to get used to the sensation of jumping into the pole as opposed to having the pole lift you off the ground.

If you are taking off on the spot or out (which is better), make sure you're not rowing your arms down to try and invert. This will get you stuck underneath the pole while it's uncoiling and it will flag you out. Also, when your feet reach the pole at the latter end of your swing you MUST drive the shoulders down otherwise you will just flag out again when you extend.

Hope that helps!

-Andrew

[Andy_C]

mcm123,

Just saw your video in your other post. You're under. It's a bad angle but the pole is bending quite a bit already and your foot is still flat on the ground. At the very least when the pole starts to bend you should be on your toes just about to leave the ground. Foot flat on the ground when the pole is bending = work to be done. It's going to be very difficult to get off a good swing with that take off + you're tall which will make your swing naturally more difficult.

I understand how this might have been missed due to the bad angle of the video. For note the best place to do a video is directly side on from the take off spot if you want to look at the jump itself (not including the run). But for this case I've added two pictures, one showing the pole bending while you're still flat-footed in the take off. The other with the pole bending quite considerably when you're jumping up, almost at toe-off.

-Andrew

[mcm123]

thank you very much andrew, i have been going to a coach every sunday this summer and he is really working from the ground up with me. he has me on a 4 step right now on a 12 foot 160, and the biggest thing he is focusing on right now is the trail leg which has helped me very much with getting inverted but the only thing stopping me from getting straight up is my bottom arm because i can drop my shoulders, i have a feeling its a trust thing that i will break soon but i was just looking for some tricks to think of to break my elbow during the jump.....i will post some videos on this topic of my next session which will be on sunday and i hope that will help. by the way my top end is crap so i plan on working on that too!

thanks again, Matt

[Andy_C]

thank you very much andrew, i have been going to a coach every sunday this summer and he is really working from the ground up with me. he has me on a 4 step right now on a 12 foot 160, and the biggest thing he is focusing on right now is the trail leg which has helped me very much with getting inverted but the only thing stopping me from getting straight up is my bottom arm because i can drop my shoulders, i have a feeling its a trust thing that i will break soon but i was just looking for some tricks to think of to break my elbow during the jump.....i will post some videos on this topic of my next session which will be on sunday and i hope that will help. by the way my top end is crap so i plan on working on that too!

thanks again, Matt

This is my opinion.

Fixing the take off will also fix the trail leg. In probably 99% of the cases of your trail leg being funny you're either taking off under, not finishing the take off, have a weak (not solid) body at take off or intentionally trying to achieve something at take off (like getting an over-exaggerated "c" position). The trail leg will almost always be a take off problem. I can't quite tell if your take off is unfinished due to the video (I need to see a side on to see exactly how you start your swing; whether the foot comes up or down) but I can definitely say you're under. That right there is your biggest problem and it will hurt everything you're doing in the air and it will continue to do so regardless of how much work you do in the air. My suggestion is that you fix this now because it will be incredibly difficult to fix later. I know an incredible (world class) coach who took a long time to solve this problem with one of the athletes he's picked up from somebody else. Trust me, once the habit of being under sticks it really won't let go very easily.

But again, that's my opinion. The coach you're working with is actually there with you every Sunday, he knows you more than I do. If he's got instructions for you, follow them. And it does sound like he's doing good things if you're on 4 steps (2 lefts) right now. But for the purpose of your learning, just remember that the plant/take off sequence sets you up for everything in the air. You could do a million gymnastics drills and have a tremendous natural swing but if you take off significantly under your air work will be very ineffective.

Take note of your position every time you do a swing drill in gymnastics or just a high bar swing (arms, trunk, hips and legs) - if you translate that to the actual vault the gymnastic drill essentially ASSUMES you've performed a free take off. The motor skills that you practice in gymnastics is actually very different from what you practice in pole vaulting if you take off under! If you take off under you will actually have to do swing drills completely differently in gymnastics in order to get better at what you actually do in the pole vault technique-wise! In fact if you think about it I would actually wouldn't call them swing drills if that were the case; "roll up" drills would probably be more appropriate but I wouldn't even bother thinking about such a drill. If you take off under you learn absolutely nothing in terms of technique when you do gymnastics (maybe only how to rotate around your shoulders but that's probably the easiest part - anybody can do that), your only benefit is getting stronger. You might as well stay home and do sit ups. But once more, that's my opinion and I'm a bit of an "radical"

-Andrew

[dj]

add to andy_c

stretching the last step.. is the most common cause of "flagging"...

which can/will cause all the other actions.. which is caused by the last 6 steps.(accurcy and speed).. which is caused by the start and first part of the run..

dj