That darn Huffman Roll....

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KirkB
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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby KirkB » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:09 pm

golfdane wrote: ... Vaulters being so focused on the bar, that they swing past the chord of the pole before the pole is vertical. The result is often a complete loss of momentum, and they stall short of the bar. ...

Instead of "swing past the chord of the pole", I would say "flag out". So the 5th image in Master's drawing ... where the vaulter is almost upside down ... is the earliest that he should "try to extend his legs over the bar".

If you have the momentum to go higher, but you try to extend over the bar too early, then you're just going to rotate your body around your center of mass (your hips). You won't be able to raise your CoM any higher, because your hips aren't close enough to the pole.

If you DON'T have the momentum to go higher, then you're just going to fall on the bar ... like AJ's doing.

I think what AJ hasn't figured out yet is that to keep from flagging out, he has to get his hips up higher ... closer to the pole. The best way to do that is to SWING to that position. To SWING to that position, he needs to swing quickly ... thus my advice for him to lower his grip. Plus improve all the other things in the run, plant, takeoff that will come with time and practice.

The lower the grip, the faster the swing. The faster the swing, the more upside down you can get ... and the more momentum you still have for the top half of your vault. The more upside down you get ... and the more momentum you still have, the less you flag out. The less you flag out ... and the more momentum you still have, the higher you go. :idea:

Momentum raises your body higher (if you position your body properly). Gravity pulls your body down. When you have no more momentum left, gravity takes over and pulls you down ... onto the bar.

There is a vertical and a horizontal component to this momentum. You not only need enough momentum to raise your body higher than the bar, you also need enough to sail your body forwards ... over the bar set at 80 cm from the box. AJ, with your present grip, even if you think you have enough vertical momentum, you still don't have enough horizontal momentum to clear the bar.

AJ, can you see how important it is to have as much momentum as possible? You get this momentum from your speed down the runway, plus the efficiency of your technique during your plant, takeoff, and swing. Once your momentum is lost, there's no "quick fix" to clear the bar. If you don't have enough momentum at your present grip, the only "quick fix" is to lower your grip. :idea:

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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby golfdane » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:22 pm

master wrote:
golfdane wrote:Seen it so many times before. Vaulters being so focused on the bar, that they swing past the chord of the pole before the pole is vertical.

It is my understanding that the vaulter should pass the chord of the pole when the chord is approximately 45 degrees from horizontal (halfway between horizontal and vertical.) How does that reconcile with your statement?

In the image below, I've added the red 45 degree line on the second image. Since I can't see the box or pole tip, I can't say for sure this is the image that represents the point in the vault I'm referring to. In fact, I feel the true 45 degree line between top hand and pole tip would actually occur somewhere between the second and third images.
swing_with_45.jpg

- master


Would you say, that his CoM has passed the chord in any of the positions? I'm not saying, that no part of the body may go past the chord.

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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby golfdane » Tue Jan 05, 2010 5:40 pm

KirkB wrote:
golfdane wrote: ... Vaulters being so focused on the bar, that they swing past the chord of the pole before the pole is vertical. The result is often a complete loss of momentum, and they stall short of the bar. ...

Instead of "swing past the chord of the pole", I would say "flag out". So the 5th image in Master's drawing ... where the vaulter is almost upside down ... is the earliest that he should "try to extend his legs over the bar".

If you have the momentum to go higher, but you try to extend over the bar too early, then you're just going to rotate your body around your center of mass (your hips). You won't be able to raise your CoM any higher, because your hips aren't close enough to the pole.

If you DON'T have the momentum to go higher, then you're just going to fall on the bar ... like AJ's doing.

I think what AJ hasn't figured out yet is that to keep from flagging out, he has to get his hips up higher ... closer to the pole. The best way to do that is to SWING to that position. To SWING to that position, he needs to swing quickly ... thus my advice for him to lower his grip. Plus improve all the other things in the run, plant, takeoff that will come with time and practice.

The lower the grip, the faster the swing. The faster the swing, the more upside down you can get ... and the more momentum you still have for the top half of your vault. The more upside down you get ... and the more momentum you still have, the less you flag out. The less you flag out ... and the more momentum you still have, the higher you go. :idea:

Momentum raises your body higher (if you position your body properly). Gravity pulls your body down. When you have no more momentum left, gravity takes over and pulls you down ... onto the bar.

There is a vertical and a horizontal component to this momentum. You not only need enough momentum to raise your body higher than the bar, you also need enough to sail your body forwards ... over the bar set at 80 cm from the box. AJ, with your present grip, even if you think you have enough vertical momentum, you still don't have enough horizontal momentum to clear the bar.

AJ, can you see how important it is to have as much momentum as possible? You get this momentum from your speed down the runway, plus the efficiency of your technique during your plant, takeoff, and swing. Once your momentum is lost, there's no "quick fix" to clear the bar. If you don't have enough momentum at your present grip, the only "quick fix" is to lower your grip. :idea:

Kirk


I should probably have said: Move the CoM past the chord way to early (reviewing a Bubka sequence clearly shows that his CoM moves past the chord shortly before reaching vertical (the again, his inversion happens earlier than most)).
I agree, that the term flag out (or stall) is a term that's appropriate.

I have a kid that has basically the same problem. So focused on grip height, and moves his grip when he thinks I'm not looking. The result is very similar to ajw. Pole has not passed vertical and vaulter is horisontal and has no momentum what so ever.

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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby Ajw118 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:02 pm

Hey guys,
So I had my first meet today and when I was talking to my coach, he suggested the same thing you guys have been saying. Once spring starts, standards will be pushed back to 80. The reason for this in his mind and the one thing he keeps stressing is that I am not holding take off long enough (which means not keeping my knee drive) which leads to me going straight to my back. I'm also staring right at the bar and getting off the pole too quickly.

I think If I look up at my top hand, hold take off/ hold knee drive, swing fast, and at least attempt to row through, I should go straight.

See Kirk, You were right

Also, I want to clarify something in case it changed some of your advice. One of the reasons I do this scissor kick/flagging out is that I don't swing up straight and i can only get one leg over so I try to get that one over and the other one gets left behind. It might be the exact same thing you were talking about, I just thought I should clarify so I know for sure we are on the same page.

Thanks again,
AJ

PS, I will the video of some of the jumps shortly.

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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:49 pm

Once spring starts, standards will be pushed back to 80.


:confused:

Why wait to make progress? Push them back NOW.
"I run and jump, and then it's arrrrrgh!" -Bubka

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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby Ajw118 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 8:42 pm

I'd love to, but we don't practice vaulting in the winter. There is no place to do so. I intend on going down to the track tomorrow to do some jagodins. I was thinking maybe using the high jump standards and a bungee so I'd have something low to practice swinging over. It's gonna be freezing though

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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Jan 10, 2010 3:05 am

Ajw118 wrote: ... I was thinking maybe using the high jump standards and a bungee so I'd have something low to practice swinging over. ...

AJ, I also think you're wasting your time by not pushing your standards to 80 and dropping your grip ... IMMEDIATELY. I've already told you this ... so if you really think "I'm right", then follow my advice ... but discuss it with your coach too.

You need to LOWER YOUR GRIP ... not bring your standards in. Trust me ... once you figure out how to swing, your grip will be back up in no time ... in a few weeks. So why wait for spring! :confused:

I'm kinda getting tired of giving you the same old advice and you not listening. :(

You told me you had umpteen meets in the next couple months. Your technique is not so good now ... and the meets are not that important ... that you need to keep your grip and standards to what you're used to. There's plenty of time during warmups to expirement with the low grip ... without a bar.

And if there's a HJ pit available outdoors, then I see no reason that you shouldn't use that ... without a bungee. I've already told you to forget about the bungee and just get used to swinging with a low grip ... then gradually raise it ... so here's your opportunity. Normally, I wouldn't recommend that you PV on a HJ pit ... but if you're only going 9 feet then I don't see the harm ... but make sure your coach is there with you.

And don't worry about the weather ... just dress for it ... don't be a wuss! ;)

Kirk
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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby Ajw118 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 12:41 pm

KirkB wrote:
Ajw118 wrote: ... I was thinking maybe using the high jump standards and a bungee so I'd have something low to practice swinging over. ...

AJ, I also think you're wasting your time by not pushing your standards to 80 and dropping your grip ... IMMEDIATELY. I've already told you this ... so if you really think "I'm right", then follow my advice ... but discuss it with your coach too.

You need to LOWER YOUR GRIP ... not bring your standards in. Trust me ... once you figure out how to swing, your grip will be back up in no time ... in a few weeks. So why wait for spring! :confused:

I'm kinda getting tired of giving you the same old advice and you not listening. :(

You told me you had umpteen meets in the next couple months. Your technique is not so good now ... and the meets are not that important ... that you need to keep your grip and standards to what you're used to. There's plenty of time during warmups to expirement with the low grip ... without a bar.

And if there's a HJ pit available outdoors, then I see no reason that you shouldn't use that ... without a bungee. I've already told you to forget about the bungee and just get used to swinging with a low grip ... then gradually raise it ... so here's your opportunity. Normally, I wouldn't recommend that you PV on a HJ pit ... but if you're only going 9 feet then I don't see the harm ... but make sure your coach is there with you.

And don't worry about the weather ... just dress for it ... don't be a wuss! ;)

Kirk


Kirk,
I understand your frustration. The thing is, I am listening. But the problem is I can't do anything about it because right now, the temperture is 12 degrees. Every single mat and bungee has been stored away in a shed and I don't have anywhere to practice. Once I can, standards will be pushed back to 80 and I will drop my grip. Until then, I will have to jump and make attempts at bars if that's what the coach tells me to do, even with my poor form.

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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby powerplant42 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:54 pm

Once I can, standards will be pushed back to 80 and I will drop my grip.


:yes:

Until then...


:no:

There should be no "until then"... :confused: Do you not understand that we're suggesting that you should be doing this at meets too?
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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby pv161 » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:24 pm

KirkB wrote:
Ajw118 wrote: .



And if there's a HJ pit available outdoors, then I see no reason that you shouldn't use that ... without a bungee. I've already told you to forget about the bungee and just get used to swinging with a low grip ... then gradually raise it ... so here's your opportunity. Normally, I wouldn't recommend that you PV on a HJ pit ... but if you're only going 9 feet then I don't see the harm ... but make sure your coach is there with you.

And don't worry about the weather ... just dress for it ... don't be a wuss! ;)

Kirk


never pole vault on a HJ pit. no matter how high you jump. falling from 9' and missing the pit could cause serious injuries. I'm surprised anyone here would think it's ok.

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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:25 pm

Ajw118 wrote: ... I understand your frustration. The thing is, I am listening. But the problem is I can't do anything about it because right now, the temperture is 12 degrees. Every single mat and bungee has been stored away in a shed and I don't have anywhere to practice. Once I can, standards will be pushed back to 80 and I will drop my grip. Until then, I will have to jump and make attempts at bars if that's what the coach tells me to do, even with my poor form.

"Where there's a will there's a way!"

I am not advising you to go against your coach's wishes ... you also need to convince him that setting your standards at 80 and adjusting your grip ... from jump to jump ... even during the competitions ... is the way to go. He may control your standard placement during the meets, but HE DOES NOT CONTROL YOUR GRIP 100%. By that I mean that you need to think for yourself during a meet, and if you raise or lower your grip by a fist, that's YOUR call. Don't ask his permission ... just do it! So lower your damn grip by a fist ... first in warmups, and then DURING THE MEET. If you blow thru ... knocking the bar off on the way up ... don't raise your grip to fix this. Instead, move your standards back. Even if your coach has a strangle-hold on your standards placement, he would be foolish to keep them in if you continue to blow thru. So he'll come to realize that your technique is better with the lower grip, and the standards need to be further back.

Throughout each warmup and each meet, you should always be adjusting your grip ... a fist at a time ... from jump to jump ... until you find the optimal grip where you sail over the bar ... with standards at 80.

You ASKED for a "quick fix" ... so this is it! It's the quickest way to improve your bad habit of flagging out.!

Now just get out there and DO IT!

Kirk
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Re: That darn Huffman Roll....

Unread postby KirkB » Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:34 pm

pv161 wrote:
KirkB wrote: ... Normally, I wouldn't recommend that you PV on a HJ pit ... but if you're only going 9 feet then I don't see the harm ... but make sure your coach is there with you.

never pole vault on a HJ pit. no matter how high you jump. falling from 9' and missing the pit could cause serious injuries. I'm surprised anyone here would think it's ok.

I disagree that "falling from 9'" can cause serious injuries ... if the proper precautions are taken.

Think of this as simply a drill ... I'm not even recommending that he attempt to clear a bar ... in fact, I'm advising against that.

AJ is 5-7, gripping 10-11 feet ... with a PR of 9-0. So he's raising his center of gravity by 6 feet at most, and he's barely bending the pole. This is not dangerous ... especially when your grip is low enough that your can clear the bar with standards at 80.

He needs to be supervised; he needs a good warmup; he needs to start with a very low grip; and he needs to move his grip up a fist at a time until he's NOT landing well into the pit. Done this way, it's not dangerous ... he will land well into the pit.

Kirk
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