How to avoid injuries from landing in the box?

[KirkB]

Go to Target. Spend $17 for a vinyl bean bag "chair". Give to an official who stands near the box. In case of a stall, they throw it into the box.

On the surface, this sounds like a very simple solution that MIGHT work. However, there's a few problems. RG mentioned one of them:

Unfortunately, most coaches I have seen who are big into "spotting" really just end up tapping. It seems to make them more likely to overgrip an athlete, because they have this false sense of security that they can save them if something goes wrong.

In defense of your idea, Divalent, I should say that trampoline coaches employ a similar method in their coaching. They shove a rectangular mat under the trampolinist when they're attempting a dangerous trick, or when he looks like he's out of control and might land badly. But in trampoline, the coach is standing to the side, and can shove the mat under him (or her) in a split second. Not quite the same with pole vaulting. The coach must stand out of the way of the vaulter planting the pole, and then move onto the runway AFTER he (or she) takes off. The bulk of the beanbag would add to this issue, since he must stand back an extra couple of feet. This would take considerably longer than in my tramp example.

Notice I'm talking about the COACH doing this. There's no way that an OFFICIAL would (or should) be responsible for doing this, as what if he DOESN'T toss the bag on a bad vault? He would then be liable. For that reason, this isn't an acceptable solution. Nice thought, tho.

However, Divalent, I'm pleased to see that you're a concerned parent looking for answers ... and surfing PVP to find them. Keep prodding until you find the answers you're looking for.

Personally I like Jan's new SafetyMax Box Collar idea ... a lot! He just posted it today ... quite a coincidence that it's on the same day you're surfing for answers!

Kirk

[Divalent]

Well, the one problem I see with doing this is, what if the person misjudges the situation and tosses it in as the vaulter clears the bar, only to have the bag push the pole into the bar, knocking it off. The fear of that mistake might make the person hesitate long enough that they might not be quick enough when really needed.

It probably would work for most elite vaulters, as their poles won't hit the bar, so a coach can just always toss it.

I don't see RB comment as relevant, as the coach is not catching them; just tossing a bag into a hole (and then running for cover)!

BTW, I've used one of these to provide extra protection on a minimally NFHS legal pit to provide extra protection in the area between the actual pit and the standards base. A 2 inch padding is nothing when a kid lands butt first in this area. They hold up pretty well and you can't beat the cost (and when they go flat, just open the zipper and toss in plastic packaging popcorn).

[rainbowgirl28]

I just don't see an official/volunteer/worker being able to react fast enough to make it work consistently. I like the creative thinking though

[Divalent]

"Personally I like Jan's new SafetyMax Box Collar idea ... a lot! "

It's better than the current collars I've seen, and the overhang on the sides should help it stay in place (at least against side to side displacements, so definitely an improvement.

But as I see it there are still two limitation that make it just an incremental improvement: 1) most of the box surface is still exposed to a falling body part, and 2) there is still a elevation difference right next to the hard (although now minimally padded) corners along sides and (in particular) across the top of the back of the box. Particularly the back of the box, where the pad is merely flush, not overhanging. There is your back breaker point. A bean bag will fill the depression, and so (if in place) preventing backs and heads from contacting them. And if they land on their feet, its a thick soft yielding substrate, not a slick hard angular surface that twists and breaks ankles.

Whether a spotter could get it down in time is a valid question. I'm confident if they did it for *every* vault without thinking, then it is easily possible. They could start the process once the vaulter clears the area on the way up, and likely have it in place shortly after they peak. But if they have to decide whether or not to do it based on what the vaulter is actually doing, there is much less time for them to make the toss.

If they changed the rules so that its not a foul if a released pole knocks the bar off, then it could be done every time without a concern that the bag would cause the pole to displace the bar. Of course, another question is whether the impact of the bag on the base of the pole would be noticable enough to a vaulter to upset their technique? It would probably be hitting the base of the pole at about the moment vaulters body was half way over the bar. Not being a vaulter myself, I don't know what a slight jarring or pole movement would mean in terms of what happens from that point on. (any insights?)

[KirkB]

... I like Jan's new SafetyMax Box Collar idea ...

... there are still two limitation that make it just an incremental improvement: 1) most of the box surface is still exposed to a falling body part, and 2) there is still a elevation difference right next to the hard (although now minimally padded) corners along sides and (in particular) across the top of the back of the box. Particularly the back of the box, where the pad is merely flush, not overhanging. There is your back breaker point.

Agreed. What I like is its simplicity ... no moving parts ... no human intervention needed to toss a bean bag over the box ... and it covers MOST of the HARD CORNERS of the box.

... A bean bag will fill the depression, and so (if in place) preventing backs and heads from contacting them. And if they land on their feet, its a thick soft yielding substrate, not a slick hard angular surface that twists and breaks ankles.

I also agree with this ... except that you ASSUME that the bean bag "will fill the depression". Remember that the pole will be in the way, preventing the bean bag from filling the ENTIRE box ... or the ENTIRE depression (including the area between the box and the pit.

If you throw it in from the takeoff point (on the runway), then the hole remaining is going to be at the back of the box ... right where the vaulter is most vulnerable (same as with the SafetyMax).

If you throw it in from the side ... with the spotter standing next to one of the standards, at right angles to the box ... then the bag will still be stopped by the pole ... but this time the "hole" will be to the side of the box. Ideally, if the spotter stands to the right of the right front bun for a right-handed vaulter ... or to the left for a lefty ... then the pole will already be more to the far side of the box, so more of the box will be filled by the bag. However, there will still be a corner of the box (and a corner of the flat area next to the box) left unprotected.

Whether a spotter could get it down in time is a valid question.

If the spotter must move onto the runway, then throw the loose bag into the box, then there MIGHT be enough time, but the timing would be challenging ... to not step onto the runway before the vaulter takes off ... and to not startle the vaulter ... and to not stand too close to the runway before stepping onto it (which might distract the vaulter from his vault).

HOWEVER, if the spotter is standing next to one of the front buns, he doesn't have to move at all. He can just throw the bag in "at the right time" ... without distracting or startling the vaulter.

If they changed the rules so that its not a foul if a released pole knocks the bar off, then it could be done every time without a concern that the bag would cause the pole to displace the bar.

Throwing the bag in from the side should NOT knock off the crossbar (as much), since it would be pushed to the other side. I don't think you should toss the bag in on EVERY jump ... only if the vaulter appears to be in trouble. In this case ... if it's a choice between saving an injury or saving a clearance ... the better decision is obvious.

... another question is whether the impact of the bag on the base of the pole would be noticable enough to a vaulter to upset their technique? It would probably be hitting the base of the pole at about the moment vaulters body was half way over the bar. Not being a vaulter myself, I don't know what a slight jarring or pole movement would mean in terms of what happens from that point on.

If the pole is pushed into the crossbar, then this is a definite problem, as it would interfere with the vaulter going over the bar. There would be lots of disputes as to whether the vaulter knocked the bar off, or the bag knocked into the pole, which knocked the bar off.

If the pole is pushed to the side of the crossbar, then this shouldn't be as much of a problem ... altho the pole might still knock off the crossbar (near the standard). But by that time, it should be obvious to an official as to what knocked the crossbar off.

Divalent, thanks for your persistence in looking for a solution to this safety issue.

I have something in mind ... based on the spotter standing to the side of the box ... which I'll post later.

Kirk

[KirkB]

Here's a vid of how you spot a trampolinist ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLUtN610CmY&feature=related

Here's my idea ... I've never tried this ... it's just a theory ... inspired by Divalent's bean bag idea ... and based on my personal observations at trampoline meets and practices ...

Do something similar to this ... from the side of the box (behind one of the front buns).

Use a trampoline spotting mat. They come in various sizes, but to cover the box (about 3-6 long), you only need a mat of that width. A mat that's 3-6 wide will be about 5-6 long and 4" thick. I think you need something thicker than that, so maybe double it up ... for an 8" thickness ... but the thicker the mat, the slower it will be to be pushed into place. Remember that this is an emergency CRASH mat, so it doesn't have to be a perfectly soft landing ... it just has to save you from serious injury.

When a vaulter appears to be stalling out ... or looks to be in trouble ... his best bet is to HANG ONTO THE POLE! This spotting mat is secondary to that.

When you see the vaulter stall out, you push the mat towards the box ... just as a trampoline spotter would do. The tricky part would be to push the mat PAST the pole without hitting it. The mat should move all the way to the other front bun, then drop down (due to gravity). The spotter will need to be trained how to do this properly ... and will need some practice at it.

Yes, there will still be a hole at the back of the box ... and in the area between the back of the box and the pit. But the objective is only to cover MOST of the box. The vaulter can then decide how to land ... feet first or legs extended across the hole ... such that his landing is the safest.

I'm thinking that this should only be used when a vaulter is in trouble ... not for every vault. And it should only be done by a trained adult (or at least a fit, 5-6 tall) spotter ... not the coach and not an official.

Trust in the spotter and signed waivers would be nice to have.

To be honest, I'm worried about this being considered "perfectly safe". It's still not. What's safe is for the vaulter to use a safe grip on a safe pole, with safe technique ... and to hang onto the pole if he stalls out. A spotting mat is secondary to all those safety precautions. Oh yes, you should STILL get a SafetyMax Box Collar or a Skydex box.

I wouldn't want this backup safety precaution to detract from the primary safety precautions that vaulters and their coaches should take.

However, I think this is an improvement over Divalent's bean bag idea. What do you think?

Kirk

[altius]

"What's safe is for the vaulter to use a safe grip on a safe pole, with safe technique ... and to hang onto the pole if he (sic) stalls out. A spotting mat is secondary to all those safety precautions. Oh yes, you should STILL get a SafetyMax Box Collar or a Skydex box."

What's safe is for the vaulter to use a safe grip on a safe pole, with safe technique
What's safe is for the vaulter to use a safe grip on a safe pole, with safe technique
What's safe is for the vaulter to use a safe grip on a safe pole, with safe technique -Amen and ad infinitum.

That means that athletes should be taught to move the pole up and forwards at take off - make NO attempt to bend it at that point. Stay with stiff poles until they have met the criteria laid down in C14 of BTB2. This is the best way to MINIMISE risk - it is virtually impossible to eliminate it when human beings are involved. Never forget that half of the entire human race has an IQ below 100.

Incidentally anyone who has ever taught gymnastics knows that spotting is a complete skill in itself - amateurs will only complicate the matter!

Also if you are looking for a dangerous sport - try recreational skiing. Many more folk are killed and injured skiing than will ever be hurt pole vaulting - but that does not mean I am saying that we should sweep the vault safety problem under the carpet! Just keep it in perspective.

[powerplant42]

Agreed!

Let's also remember that the safer the athlete FEELS (not necessarily IS) the more they think that they can't get hurt.

Not saying there shouldn't be some sort of advancement made in box safety, but I'm also just trying to keep things in perspective. Nothing beats good coaching and supervision.

[jerry hock]

Great answer. You might want to join Kirk B. on an idea he is working on that is pretty close to your obvious great suggestion that has been overlooked for so long. I have a chunk of foam that we throw into the box. I call it a spotting pillow. No gymnast would be without one, yet vaulters risk life and limb and no one has yet to design an effective protective pad that works automatically on every vault. Kirk is on it.
Jerry

[Capt Caveman]

I have to ask, is the idea of throwing a bean bag into the box area a "real" post? Or was it meant to be a joke?

I was one of those kids who had a set of stairs when i was young and i had a bean bag. We used to jump from the stairs to the bean bag and by the time we got 3 to 4 staris up we either bottomed out or the bag popped and those little beans went EVERYWHERE (Mom got pissed and Dad got the duct tape out). I couldnt have been more than 50 or 60 lbs and that is why our bean bags all ended up with duct tape all over them. I can not imagine that a bean bag is going to provide much of any support/cushioning for a 100 - 180 lb person falling from 6 - 16 feet, unless bean bag technology has come a long way.

I am also curious how you "spot" in the vault. Tapping is against the rules and a bad idea (as i have gathered from all the posts on it on this site) and I cannot imagine trying to "catch" a falling vaulter. Is there a way to not tap or catch but "spot" a vaulter?

[dj]

Hey

No beanbag and no “spot”…….. jan’s box “pad” a good idea..

But like I said on another thread.. you can’t write rules that will “mandate” safety.

Safety comes from, following the physics and safe conscientious coaches and athletes…

Coming down in the box comes from lack of appropriate force at takeoff to move the pole to vertical.. right??

Two solutions..

one… never over grip.. two.. have the correct run… (if your athlete is way off at the 6 step “mid” yell for them to stop!!!)

both items can be corrected by the athlete and the coach without more rules, more pads, helmets or the spotter being “liable” because they didn’t spot correctly.

dj

[achtungpv]

A few years back, didn't someone develop a "squirrel trap" contraption that covered the box when the pole passed vertical?