Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

[PaulVaulter]

As soon as the pole tip hits the bottom of the box, not the back, the inertia of the pole causes it to keep moving and the pole to strainghten again and almost bend backwards, negating the point you just made.

Watch the top guys with the best take-offs and you will see the pole almost bend backwards before they take-off. You need a force with your bottom arm to get your pre-bend back.

Also note, you can still be applying a force as you arm bends towards your face.

[powerplant42]

And when you pre-jump? There is little force going into the bottom of the box. You can check out the 6.01 in Athens and see what I mean.

[golfdane]

And when you pre-jump? There is little force going into the bottom of the box. You can check out the 6.01 in Athens and see what I mean.

To say "little force", is kind of an understatement. Sure, the prejump redirects some of the energy from the run-up, but the force with which the pole hits the back of the box is considerable!

http://www.stabhoch.com/pages/19920713_Bubka_611.html

Trying to estimate how much pressure is going into the pole from the bottom hand from video evidence, is guesswork at best. Reviewing the above video of Bubka, would I say, that a force SEEMS to influence the pole where the bottom hand grips at take-off (it seems to bend very near the bottom hand). As soon as there is ample force from the tophand, AND contact with the box, do I not have a clue whether he's pushing or pulling or if he's neutral. But without having some kind of pressure gauge in the palm of his hand, can we only guess what he was actually doing.
I would estimate this to be isometric resistance, closely resembling what Isi is doing in her plant drills. This resistance occurs IMHO ONLY for a very short time (until the bend tells you where the bottom hand should go). The resistance (or press) is not retained throughout the swing or when inversion occurs.

The codeword is "high handS"... (Not hand....) at take-off.

"The left arm is not trying to bend the pole; it plants it firmly towards the bar and then transfers the effort to the right hand, so that the pole is bent by the impact of the vaulter's speed and mass. The vaulter, alert to the resilience of the pole, must perform all the subsequent actions on the pole as on a rigid support."

"Plants it firmly towards the bar AND THEN TRANSFERS the effort to the right hand"??? It indicates to me, that the left arm plays a very short role, but that the right arm clearly has the key role in applying force to the pole (and nobody doubts the latter statement, right??) and determining the amount of bend you achieve (in no way should the left arm try to increase the bend). IMHO, the small part I feel the left hand has, decreases the loss of force the the initial buckle requires (less shock at the shoulder girdle at box impact).

[powerplant42]

To say "little force", is kind of an understatement. Sure, the prejump redirects some of the energy from the run-up, but the force with which the pole hits the back of the box is considerable!

Golfdane, you're absolutely right! There is a ton of force (maybe literally) hitting the back of the box! When I said "bottom", I really meant the bottom of the box... It was in relation to this quote:

As soon as the pole tip hits the bottom of the box, not the back, the inertia of the pole causes it to keep moving and the pole to strainghten again and almost bend backwards, negating the point you just made.

If one achieves a pre-jump, the arms will extend up as the vaulter leaves the ground AS the pole tip slides through the box. The bottom hand is a fulcrum at this point... perhaps minimally, but enough. When you see vaulters achieve a 'negative bend', it is often due to a late plant (in which they will force the pole down with the left hand to get there in time). This negative bend will be made worse by the contact with the ground (bottom of the box). At this point, pushing with the left arm may not be such a bad idea...

[PV20]

I went through and did some catching up on this topic and came to realize that the focus has drifted here and there a little bit away from the initial question, but still pertaining to the basic idea...


So my question is does push or no push matter??

Goals of the pole vaulting ,

jump high...obviously so to jump high besides the obvious of being strong and running fast and have proper technique, whats the basic goal of the vault???? to push the pole to vertical, "I don't think" any one would disagree with this statement and say you don't want to push the pole to vertical, so the best way to relate this to the arms, would be to see which one makes sense? ..... so I have been thinking about this and I honestly don't know, push or no push which one exerts the best upward/forward motion to get the pole to vertical??? any physicists?? Personally I like to think a great example of a vaulter pushing the pole to vertical is Maxim Tarasov, He definitely doesn't push like MIles or Hartwig , but also doesn't have the same initial hit("or not hit") on the pole like Bubka, but just watching the movement of his poles fluidity throughout the jump looks very....productive/correct?

[KirkB]

"Plants it firmly towards the bar AND THEN TRANSFERS the effort to the right hand"??? It indicates to me, that the left arm plays a very short role, but that the right arm clearly has the key role in applying force to the pole (and nobody doubts the latter statement, right??) and determining the amount of bend you achieve (in no way should the left arm try to increase the bend). IMHO, the small part I feel the left hand has, decreases the loss of force that the initial buckle requires (less shock at the shoulder girdle at box impact).

I'm going to disagree with you here, Golfdane, as well as with PaulVaulter and anyone else that thinks that you need SOME (just a bit) of pressure with the bottom arm.

I like that fact that you're all agreeing that it's JUST A BIT, and especially NO FURTHER PUSHING FORCE THEREAFTER! We seem to have some agreement re the THEREAFTER part.

In the past week, you've all had some discussion on whether planting the pole bends it slightly BEFORE it hits the back of the box. Hogwash, I say. The vaulter's intent should be to make the pole WEIGHTLESS. So if it's weightless, there's no PRESSING force that will bend it prior to the hit. Occassionally, it will NOT be weightless, but at least in my case that was NOT by intent. So I think that idea is a red herring. Not much different than the same discussion on the Repent thread last summer. Same old same old.

Here's some angles that havn't been discussed here much yet ...

If a vaulter MUST apply pressure to START the bend (just a bit), then what is it that happens when he goofs, and he DOESN'T apply this pressure? Can anyone provide any anecdotal evidence that the pole just didn't bend as well as it should have? This speaks to the "pole is a perfect column" argument.

Personally, I can't answer that question, because I NEVER intentionally pressed AT ALL with my bottom arm.

But I postulate that ...

1. ... if you USUALLY press a bit, but once in awhile DON'T, then what happens? I'm thinking that you won't even notice, because PRESSING (even just a bit) isn't at all necessary - as long as the top arm takes the jolt "properly".

2. ... if you DO press a bit, this sideways force is so trivial compared to the force of the top hand DIRECTLY DOWN THE COLUMN OF THE POLE that it matters not whether you press or not. (Close to what PaulVaulter said - but not quite.)

3. ... if you THINK that you press, could it be that you're really just redistributing the weight/force of the run/takeoff across BOTH arms, simply because the top arm alone isn't strong enough to bear all this weight? In other words, could it be that you're really not pressing in a direction sideways from the chord? Could it be that you're actually pressing DIRECTLY DOWN THE CHORD, but you THINK you're pressing sideways? And could it be that the reason you feel this illusion (if true) is because the pole bends (away from your bottom hand) as you're pressing DOWN the pole, so maybe it FEELS like you're pressing UP?

Just food for thought.

Kirk

[golfdane]

Fair enough, Kirk You got way more experience than me.

I think Petrov (or rather the translation) doesn't specifically state, that there isn't an acting force from the bottom hand at take-off. Rather, he uses the sentence "it plants it firmly towards the bar and then transfers the effort to the right hand".

The video by Bubka is inconclusive, since we can't know for sure whether the very early bend I seem to notice in the Dijon jump I linked previously, is the result from the pole hitting the back of the box, AND the top hand ALONE pushes forward and up, or if there is a slight force just there from the bottom hand. IMHO, is there a notion, that the bend seems to "focus" around the bottom hand, indicating my sentiment (slight pressure from bottom hand).

I have not argued, that the pole is a perfect column, and the pole WILL bend from the top hand alone (never postulated otherwise). However, I think Petrov did in fact indicate, that the bottom hands plays an active role for a very short time (plants it firmly towards the bar), and then leaves the stage to let the top hand play the key role (transfers the effort).

"The most dangerous moment during the drop is an early touch of the box when the transition is made from the right to the take-off foot." (again, from Petrov's article)

Something that I feel is also replicated in Isi's plant drill, when she keeps the poletip clear of the ground.....

This is, IMHO, something that happens in such a short time, that there's no consciousness as whether one did press, or one didn't, during a jump. It's "learned" in the Isi plant drill.

[KirkB]

Golfdane, the way you explain it, I think we're pretty much in agreement.

It's unfortunate that Petrov's statements are vague, but he's only one coach - albeit a reknowned one.

I do take Petrov's statements to mean exactly what I experienced, but that's my bias. I really don't see any assertion from him saying that there MUST be slight pressure after the pole hits.

Altius says there is, and I respect his opinion as well. But I do leave the door open here to the possibility that the pressure Altius is talking about is DOWNWARDS pressure - down the column (chord before it bends) of the pole. IMHO, this could especially be the case for young vaulters that can't hold on with one arm.

However, as per my last post, I don't think there's positive proof one way or the other whether this pressure is NEEDED or not. The jury is still out, and we may never know. Short of putting pressure guages in the palms of elites, we really just need to get their candid answer to the question - especially regarding their INTENT.

Kirk

[powerplant42]

I think this is just slightly relevant...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1117&hl=en

~28 minutes is where it gets interesting... At first, I was suprised by what he said! But then I realized that it was before take-off...

[Erica]

Short of putting pressure guages in the palms of elites, we really just need to get their candid answer to the question - especially regarding their INTENT

Unfortunately, it seems like an elite could clearly state their intention, and give proof to whether pressure is needed or not, but this arguement would still go on... **sigh**

[golfdane]

Short of putting pressure guages in the palms of elites, we really just need to get their candid answer to the question - especially regarding their INTENT

Unfortunately, it seems like an elite could clearly state their intention, and give proof to whether pressure is needed or not, but this arguement would still go on... **sigh**

No need to sigh

Intent and actual execution, are two different animals. Kirk clearly states, that he never intended to put any pressure on the pole from the bottom hand during the take-off phase, and I have no reason to doubt that. My mentor, who jumped in the same olympics as Kirk, emphazises press (not push) in the phase Kirk and I discuss. Our discussion goes on whether it (slight isometric resistance) might facilitate a smoother transfer of energy to the pole during this very short phase in the jump, and still have a free take-off.

The Petrov video linked above, doesn't shed to much light on the issue, though rather informative. It's as inconclusive as the article on IAAF (translation???).

[Robert schmitt]

I had an injury three years ago I seperated my left shoulder. if you were to ask me if I pushed or put any pressure on the pole with my bottom (left arm) I would've said no. I about 4 wks into the injury it was feeling pretty good so I tried jumping in the tacoma beach vault. I could run, plant, do pop ups no problem with the left shoulder. went to vault from my 4 left mark and ooch!! did another pop up no problem. thought about it for a while and said what the heck I'll try a "pop up"actually pulling slightly as I executed the takeoff from my 4 left run and grip...no shoulder pain. I was running from 59'6" gripping 13'3"-6" on a 13'9" 190. The pole deiffinatly reacted differently and bent less. I felt like the swing impacted the pole less. I made some decent jumps at 15' bungee that pat Lacari was warming up at..I would not have made 15' but I think I could have made a 14'-14'6" bar. Ended up no hieghting during the meet. take it for what it's worth I was injured and had not touched a pole for a month.

Before this experience I would have argued that I apply no pressure with my bottom arm but after actively trying not to infact that was all I was focousing on... I would now say.... that there is some pressure applied I cann't feel it I can only tell when I didn't. My Intent at plant and take off is to use my arms to assist the jump getting as tall upwards as I can and stretch upwards through my top arm . This applies some force upward through my left arm I'm sure. I don't try to increase, exaggerate, or extend the time that I preform this. Kind of like if I was jumping up to dunk a basketball I use my arms to assist my jump that's it.... You can see in my avitar my bottom arm is bent pointing slightly outwards not an indication that I'm pushing with is at all.