Isi technique compared to chelsea,lacy,stacy

[baggettpv]

".....this seems to hurt in that no technique is perfected over a long period of time.vaulters must change from hs to college to elite never perfecting one style.in all the other countrys i have studied there is one centralized technique.(germany poland russia)of course there is variation of the centralized technique but allways the same basic model for the country at every level....." end quote

I have studied under Andjei (85 - 89), Petrov (90 something in Reno at the slot machines for 4 hours) and Alan (His books are in my garage). Each of these fellows have provided me with the same information on the technique of the event. I find that very interesting!
Check my spelling and grammer as I am a shop teacher....

The Elites of tomorrow exist in the beginners of today.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[baggettpv]

Somebody put a list together of a comparison of the HS guys at 5.20 - 5.35 that went on to 5.70 - 5.80+ in the last 20 years. I have done it... Track and Field New subscriber for 30 years. Lets talk about what you find and relate that to the earlier quote. Then the question is why not? It's an educational question related to curriculum development. Remember, Shop Teacher.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[dj]

Hey

I actually wasn’t calling Petrov “out”… I respect him for what he has done and put him at the top of the list because of his work. I think Petrov has a very clear picture of what it takes for everyone/anyone to jump high.

I agree with Barto.. and with the speed and approach run of Greg and Scott.. I have film of Scott attempting 20-2 (with enough height to clear) on the beach in Manhattan Beach, CA… the runway wasn’t “down hill” like most thought… I set the runway myself… that part was an illusion because of the sand sloping to the water…there was a nice tailwind of the water…

As a coach if the run and speed are fast and correct, what is the next step in the process?

Plant? Takeoff? Grip? pole? Swing? As their coach that would have been the process.

By “natural” I guess I would describe it as working with physics… if the takeoff is “out” what we call “free” --- my description of “free” is; the top hand as high as possible, the pole angle as high toward vertical as possible, with the athlete just going up on the “tip toe’and just as the pole tip “hits” the back of the box.

I really don’t think the athletes can “push” the bottom hand or has to “lever” the pole in any way when the takeoff is “free”… Tully described the feeling this way…. when he was “out”/”free” which felt like only 3 inches “out” to him… he felt he was “flying” weightless at the plant… when he had that kind of takeoff he knew he should “swing like hell” or he would fly over the back of the pit without a chance to "turn up" because of the added pole speed from a “free” takeoff.

When Petrov described the free takeoff to a hand full of us in Reno that very first time, Tully’s description and the mental picture I had from Petrov was one and the same. Both descriptions matches with the “physics” of application of force.

Free or “natural’ you can’t “push’ or leverage the pole… you have to swing as fast as you can.. That is why many years ago I broke the vault into only three parts.. RUN>>>PLANT>>>SWING…. but if you takeoff “under” you have to compensate by “pushing” to keep from passing the cord of the pole. If you push you then have to make other adjustments (tuck) along the way to come off the top correctly.

Is “under” tuck and shoot the correct way to vault?.. not if you have the speed, physical height, technique and the physical strength.. but if not you compensate…

Fiberglass has allowed us to “compensate” and achieve reasonable success.

Give everyone a 16 foot aluminum Big Red to jump with and you would see world record holders with the same technique.. the same application of force..

Lets have some fun with numbers….

Seven equals a 5.90 jump..

Speed+physical height+plant+swing+finish

2+1+2+1+1 = 7
3+3+1=7 this one would be Fast..Tall..no plant and falls over the bar..
3+2+1+1=7
4+2+1=7
5+1+1=7


Which is your best 5.90 jumper? or what is the best or "perfect"?... and how many other combinations can you come up with??

dj

[charlie]

Let me first say that Dave knows I have alot of respect for his opinion, and what i am about to share is mine alone. First of all about the free takeoff, i think it is the correct way to go IF you have great speed. For high schoolers you can get alot of athletes hurt trying the free takoff when their speed is average or below like mine. These vaulters end up jumping on the end of the pole and cannot penetrate. As for the BENT ARM press as you leave the ground ( which i teach) I would like everybody to go to stabhochsprung and scroll all the way down to Bubkas video and look closely as he definately PRESSES AFTER he leaves the ground. Now the critical part is that he swings and inverts at the SAME TIME he press and lets the left arm come back in to pass thru the l position in ONE move up off the end of the pole 2 ft. OUT IN FRONT OF THE BAR. I call this plant ( cocking the pole) I have a 4th grade little girl doing it and she literly gets SHOT up off the pole. I personally think that our 19' vaulters could learn this and IMMEADIATLY go to 20'!!! Coach Charlie (masters two time world champion) PS Any body who want's to learn this can come to fitzgerald, georgia where we have two pits and two runways 23 vaultersa and 2008 4 state champions using this method. Cell 229-425-0575

[KirkB]

... As for the BENT ARM press as you leave the ground ( which i teach) I would like everybody to go to stabhochsprung and scroll all the way down to Bubkas video and look closely as he definately PRESSES AFTER he leaves the ground. Now the critical part is that he swings and inverts at the SAME TIME he press and lets the left arm come back in to pass thru the l position in ONE move up off the end of the pole 2 ft. OUT IN FRONT OF THE BAR. I call this plant ( cocking the pole) I have a 4th grade little girl doing it and she literly gets SHOT up off the pole. I personally think that our 19' vaulters could learn this and IMMEADIATLY go to 20'!!!

Charlie, please also take a look at this vid of Bubka's 6.01 jump, and tell me what you think: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYaBPDTrVuI&feature=related . In THIS vid, do you really think he's pressing?

You should be aware that we're discussing this on the "Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?" thread (Advanced Technique forum), and we've had some discussion of the Bubka 6.01 vid. There's been considerable controversy on PVP in general (and on that thread) as to whether Bubka actually presses with his bottom arm or not - ever - and whether pressing is good technique or not. I'm also running a survey on that thread, where the consensus so far is that you should NOT push with the bottom arm after takeoff. I welcome you to join that discussion.

I'm not trying to convince you that you must follow the "pure Petrov model". [sigh]

I just want to point out that the model you're teaching is definitely not Petrov (which you probably already know), and that pressing AFTER you leave the ground is probably going to slow down your athletes' swings and ultimately cause them to vault LOWER.

But heck, we can't even agree on whether or not Bubka is pressing with his bottom arm, so I doubt that I'll ever convince you that the Petrov model is best!

That's OK, we can still discuss this amiably!

Kirk

[charlie]

Kirk-Great video of Bubka and I think it enforces what i teach which i think is the Petrof model---Early plant--BENT arm drive FORWARD-- COCK the pole by PRESSING up at the SAME TIME you pike thru the L position in one CONTINUOUS move up and off the pole EARLY. I refer it to a bow and arrow effect. Some coaches on polevault powe don't believe the pole gives you lift, and that's simply not true. If a vaulter has guts enough to get back EARLY with the right plant, he will experience the BOOM off the end!!! No dought you are on the right track as a coach, you just don't agree that he presses. There has to be something that takes his left arm from a 45 degree angle to a 90 degree angle and back EARLY!!

[mjb]

I know someone who trained with petrov. Petrov told this individual that you must press both arms to the bar at take off and continue pressing up. He never told him to relax any one of his arms. He would tell him to press up to the bar. Equal pressure with both arms up to the bar.

[VaultNinja]

First of all thanks for the great discussion everyone. This is one of the most productive threads i've read, and actually found myself reading every word of it.

I can't comment on Bubka's arm pressing, but I know that Stacy does, and always has, and I coach my athletes too as well, if I think it will help them. Granted everyone is a little different. But i feel like its necessary to keep a great deal of pressure on the pole while you are swinging in "behind it" (the bend) and it helps you get into a better vertical position, at that point obviously your arm has to bend. Although I have watched alot of Tobys footage when he was on fire, and it was almost like he keeps so much pressure on the pole, that his bottom arm doesn't bend even when he is inverted, and that allows him to get huge blow off the top of poles that traditionally don't have as big of Flex numbers as guys who jumped 6m in the past or present.

On the flip side, I can't argue against people that say you don't need to press with your bottom arm if you have a powerful trail leg more "classic" type swing. Because the pressure is still being loaded in the pole (maybe more efficiently), only the difference is that its coming from the power of the swing which is all connected to the pendulum of your top hand. Therefor if your poles loaded and staying that way through the swing you don't really need to press with your bottom arm, but if its elbow angle does change its only because you are repositioning your body. Which I will also coach.

Sorry to drag this on,
but I feel like with the tuck and shoot vault, its necessary to press with the bottom arm while swinging or you lose all pressure in the pole. But with the monster c-position, long trail leg "classic" swing, its optional.

Which way is more efficient, I don't know. But whichever way compliments my athlete is the que I will use.

[KirkB]

Good discussion, let's keep it rolling ...

I'm finding the opinions about non-Petrov techniques interesting, and I don't want to stifle that commentary. However, as you know, I lean towards Petrov ...

Free or “natural’ you can’t “push’ or leverage the pole… you have to swing as fast as you can.

Charlie ...

Some coaches on polevault power don't believe the pole gives you lift, and that's simply not true. If a vaulter has guts enough to get back EARLY with the right plant, he will experience the BOOM off the end!!! No doubt you are on the right track as a coach, you just don't agree that he presses. There has to be something that takes his left arm from a 45 degree angle to a 90 degree angle and back EARLY!!

... the pole does give you lift (the more energy you put into it, the more energy is returned), and the earlier you get back (into an inversion), the better you're positioned to "shoot" the "arrow". We all know what happens if an arrow isn't pointed in the right direction when the bow uncoils. Your analogy is a good one. And I think VaultNinja answered your question re where that "something" comes from - repositioning your body.

Where we don't agree 100% is on HOW the pole gives you lift. My experience and understanding of physics tells me that once you leave the ground and the double-pendulum begins, then there's a set amount of energy that's either stored into the pole (as potential energy) or stays with the athlete (as the kinetic energy of the swing).

For the sake of simplifying this discussion right now, we will ignore the opportunity to add even more energy into the system by trail leg action or body extension action. I wouldn't mind discussing those energy sources in subsequent posts, but not just yet. Let's cover the basics first.

My assertion is that this fixed amount of energy is distributed into the pole and the athlete's swing in some proportion adding up to 100%.

Say Vaulter A presses with his bottom arm (like Dragila) and 70% (arbitrarily) goes into the pole, 20% into the swing, and 10% is lost. (These % could be way off, but that doesn't matter.)

Now say Vaulter B uses a "natural" swing (like Tully or Isi), and doesn't press. Will it still be 70% of the energy that goes into the pole; 20% into the swing; and 10% lost? Not likely. It's more likely that less goes into the pole, and more goes into the swing. Let's say 60% (arbitrarily again) goes into the pole and 30% into the swing, still leaving the same 10% as lost energy.

Is there less energy loss with one technique vs. the other? It's hard to quantify, but for the time being, let's leave them both at 10%. My instincts tell me that pressing agains the pole is an isometric muscular action that is probably less efficient, but let's not worry about this point - it's not as important as what I'm leading up to.

Now the pole is at full bend (maximum potential energy), and we'll look at what happens in the sequence of body actions that occurs during the uncoiling of the pole.

To me, the most critical factor here (which you seem to agree with, Charlie) is that you've got to invert EARLY to aim that arrow (the athlete's body) in the right direction, ready for the bow (the pole) to uncoil. Here's where the tuck/shoot breaks down, and the "natural swing" (i.e. Petrov model) shines!

I have yet to see a tuck/shooter that gets back early. Instead, they're muscling up/back to catch up to the pole - whereas if you swing you get back earlier. On many video reviews on PVP, I've pointed out that this is a very easy FACT to prove and quantify. All you need to do is count the number of video frames where the vaulter is in the "flat-back" position. If it's zero or one, then they're not STUCK in this position - they're just passing thru it. This is typical of Petrovers (natural swingers). If it's more than one, then they need to TUCK (an inefficient muscular action - not an efficient swinging action) to catch up to the pole.

So here's what I'm leading up to ...

If the 70% + 20% vs. 60% + 30% both add up to 90% of the "energy at takeoff", then with which technique do you get BACK the most energy in the top half of the vault? At the risk of disagreement from some of you, I think that the muscular actions of the tuck/shooter are going to be more inefficient than the natural swing of the Petrover. So let's say you get back 70% (again, arbitrarily) with the tuck/shoot and 80% with Petrov. If Vaulter A and Vaulter B jumped off the ground with equal energy, then this will result in Vaulter B jumping 14% (80 divided by 70) higher.

Comments?

... On the flip side, I can't argue against people that say you don't need to press with your bottom arm if you have a powerful trail leg more "classic" type swing. Because the pressure is still being loaded in the pole (maybe more efficiently), only the difference is that its coming from the power of the swing which is all connected to the pendulum of your top hand. Therefore if your pole's loaded and staying that way through the swing you don't really need to press with your bottom arm, but if its elbow angle does change it's only because you are repositioning your body. ...

That's a good way of saying this, VN.

In summary, I'm suggesting that ENERGY_OUT = ENERGY_IN - ENERGY_LOSSES, and the pressing of the bottom arm only redistributes some of this energy - it doesn't ADD any energy (but may - arguably - LOSE some). But we all knew that already - this argument is as old as the hills. The new idea here (maybe not new for Charlie and I) is that the sooner you get inverted, the better position you're in to SHOOT OFF THE TOP OF THE POLE!

BOOM!!!

I can elaborate later if you like (or you can find it in my Bryde Bend thread), but the sooner you get inverted, the longer and smoother your extension into the inverted "I" position will be - adding even MORE energy into the system! Ditto re the energy added to the system by a long, powerful swing. The less you press with your bottom hand, the LONGER and MORE POWERFUL the swing. It's simply physics. No?

Kirk

[vaultwest]

Why not do both. I think sometimes we look at one aspect of a particular athlete and determine whether his/her specific style is correct. Just because one athlete has a flaw in there technique at that certain movement does not mean that all athletes make the same mistake. There is a correct way to tuck and shoot and an incorrect way, as there is also a correct way to swing vault and an incorrect way. I personally think that a big natural swing that includes a swinging or whip swinging trail leg and the proper action of the both arms whether you call it pushing / pulling / levering / rowing is what not only keeps the vault active but I believe with those movements we can add a great deal of additional energy into the vault, i.e. vault higher.

[swtvault]

I really think that pressure or pressing is a loose term and should be defined a little better. When I think of pressing, I am thinking of applying pressure to the pole upwards or outwards with the bottom hand. I believe this kind of pressure is bad. All this does is inhibit the pole from rolling over as you are applying force in the opposite direction the pole is trying to go. To connect the dots: Watch David Butlers Reno 2009 presentation--I think it was posted here somewhere. I think he explains with great clarity the role the hands should play, and what kind of pressure you should strive for at takeoff.

[powerplant42]

I know someone who trained with petrov. Petrov told this individual that you must press both arms to the bar at take off and continue pressing up. He never told him to relax any one of his arms. He would tell him to press up to the bar. Equal pressure with both arms up to the bar.

The key is the position of the bottom arm at take-off... The elbow must be pointing OUT! I can't think of any reasonable argument against this!