Is Pushing with the Bottom Arm Good or Bad?

[MadeinTaiwan]

kirkb i believe the term agapit usually uses when he talks about the iniataion of the swing/pull is "after the takeoff is completed" which can be different from what you said which was "when the pole hits the back of the box".
for a long time i was confused by what this meant because i couldn't get my mind around beginning the swing/pull after the takeoff was completed, which to me at the time meant when my takeoff foot left the ground/pole hit the back of the box.

then i asked agapit to clarify it for me, and he said that what he means by "after the takeoff is completed" is not when the foot leaves the ground/pole hits the back of the box, but is in fact when what altius usually calls the pre-stretch is reached, what most people call the "c" position. i believe agapit doesn't use the term "c" position because he thinks it seems to describe a passive phase which as we all know the 6.40 model has none.

now the only question left is if he thinks its optimal to "complete the takeoff" as soon as the foot leaves the ground/pole hits the back of the box.

[hallvaulter]

I dont think it's about pushing, I think it's more about making sure your hands are up early to initiate a good takeoff. That's all im saying, long paragraphs and big words aren't my specialty.

[vaultman18]

It is correct to pull after the Plant and Take-off are COMPLETE and the swing has initiated itself.

Disclaimer
If you try to pull with an under take-off and bad Run and Plant you are waisting your time.

[dougb]

All right!

Kirk

First of all, thank you for your comments and criticisms of my opus.
We are on the same page, and it is sort of a chicken/egg thing.
Also, we are not talking about something that will make or break the vault. There have been/are very good vaulters who are at both extremes of the use of the bottom arm.

First I should give everyone a little exp/cred.

Years vaulting – 15
PR 14’ 6” 1960 Angel Field, Stanford Univ.
I trained with:
George Mattos
Jeff Chase
Bill Toomy
J D Martin
Etc.
I have a degree in Math/Operations Research.

Looking at what I just wrote, It looks more impressive than it really is, and it is all definitely “old school”.

Got back into vaulting because of my daughter, and been soaking up all the information I can, especially on this board. ( Thank you Becca!) It’s only fair to the vaulters I coach.

Now, to the egg
I think you can tell whether the vaulter is pressing by the relationship of the hips to the hands. If the vaulter does not press, the hips will move forward. How much movement depends on how when or to what degree they do press. I think it’s safe to say that fiberglass splinters in the forehead are not desireable.

In your survey you have two variations on the Petrov model. Relaxed and some pressure. From looking at video of Bubka I suspect that Petrov may have been holding something back when discussing his method. After all it is an international competition and for the Russians winning is everything. I say this because Bubka looks a lot more like Tim McMichael’s description of the “Drive Vault” than Alan Lauder’s translation of the Petrov Model. At least in body position and whip. I also believe that his bottom arm position – bent and out - was to allow his chest to penetrate and trail leg to move back relative to his hips. Like Tim says “ In order for the trail leg to move back something must move forward.”

dougb wrote: I conjecture. That any flex or swing of the vaulters body that occurs when the pressure first comes on to the pole will reduce that pressure. Since this is primarily a pole bending event, the height which can be achieved will be reduced.

Your conjecture. I think this is where I'm getting my money's worth.

The "continuous chain" model - which both the Petrov model and the 6.40 model support - is quite the opposite. The vaulter's DOWNSWING puts MORE "pressure" (energy) into the pole. All the work that the vaulter does up to and including the WHIP (i.e. the entire DOWNSWING) puts energy INTO the pole. This is roughly to the point of the vaulter passing the pole's chord. If done
correctly, it's only AFTER the whip that pressure is relieved and the pole begins to (or SHOULD begin to) recoil.



100 % agreement.

Really, all I am saying is that to set up the above, the vaulter should be as rigid “as possible” when transferring his momentum to the pole. That momentum provides most of the bending force. The other bending force is as you describe and can be considerable.

Finally: I would invite everyone to go to Stabhoch.com and watch all of Svetlana Feofanova’s vaults. She seems to be almost perfect in her take off (always a free take off) and the transfer of momentum to the pole. In particular watch the movement of her head. Let me know what you think.

Douglas Balcomb
PV coach, Colfax HS, Calif.

[powerplant42]

Yes, she does tend to have a fabulous take-off...

From looking at video of Bubka I suspect that Petrov may have been holding something back when discussing his method. After all it is an international competition and for the Russians winning is everything. I say this because Bubka looks a lot more like Tim McMichael’s description of the “Drive Vault” than Alan Lauder’s translation of the Petrov Model. At least in body position and whip. I also believe that his bottom arm position – bent and out - was to allow his chest to penetrate and trail leg to move back relative to his hips. Like Tim says “ In order for the trail leg to move back something must move forward.”

I DON'T think he was holding anything back... If there was a secret, I'm sure we would've figured it out by now.

Really, all I am saying is that to set up the above, the vaulter should be as rigid “as possible” when transferring his momentum to the pole. That momentum provides most of the bending force. The other bending force is as you describe and can be considerable.

Yes, rigid... The body must be 'strong' at/during/'through' take-off... However, the flexing of muscles must not become contraction... Therein lies an interesting debate about the role of the TOP arm, which is very relevant to the bottom arm.

SURELY we all agree on the role of the top arm? (We don't...)

[KirkB]

Dougb, thanks for your reply.

... Now, to the egg
I think you can tell whether the vaulter is pressing by the relationship of the hips to the hands. If the vaulter does not press, the hips will move forward. How much movement depends on how when or to what degree they do press. I think it’s safe to say that fiberglass splinters in the forehead are not desireable.

Yes. Keying of Feofanova, and her Athens 4.75 in 2004, I agree that she's pressing with her bottom arm. She was the WR holder then, at 4.88, and this vid was shot about 50 days later. I will NOT, however, concede that her technique MUST be correct, since she holds the WR. You remember John Pennel's WRs back in the 1960s? Same thing. He pressed with his bottom arm, and set the WR several times. To me, this is only proof that you can jump high with bad technique.

But let's look at both her hips AND her chest. Neither drives thru. Thus, she must be pressing with the bottom arm. This is quite apparent in a vid (QuickTime frame-by-frame is easy if you just click immediately to the right of the progress bar - frame-by-frame.)

I do agree with you 100% though, that her body is RIGID. This is a good thing. If you're "soft" on takeoff, a lot of energy disipates - rather than getting transferred to the pole. My analogy for this is bouncing on a tramp. As you land each bounce, your body must be rigid. If it's not, the shock will be absorbed, and you won't bounce back as high.

However - and this is where we don't fully agree - I don't think a rigid body should include a rigid bottom arm. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this point. [sigh]

Let's follow Svetlana's vault thru ...

1. By pressing with her bottom arm, she has slowed down her swing (bad).
2. Her trail leg action is good (long and forceful), albeit too slow.
3. When her back is parallel with the runway, the pole has already started to recoil (very bad). This is due to her slow swing (which was due to pressing).
4. She's in the "flat back" position for WAY TOO LONG. This is a passive position - not part of the "continuous chain" model. I count at least 6 frames where her back stays flat. Count them! If her motion was continuous (like Isi's and Bubka's), she would simply PASS THRU this "flat back" position in a single frame.
5. The rest of her vault is a fairly good recovery from the "flat back".

Like you said, her takeoff is excellent. If she had followed the Petrov model thru the rest of her vault, I conjecture that she might have hit 5.00 before Isi.

... From looking at video of Bubka ... I also believe that his bottom arm position – bent and out - was to allow his chest to penetrate and trail leg to move back relative to his hips. Like Tim says “ In order for the trail leg to move back something must move forward.”

Agreed. Can you see that he does this much better than Feofanova?

... Really, all I am saying is that to set up the above, the vaulter should be as rigid “as possible” when transferring his momentum to the pole. That momentum provides most of the bending force. The other bending force is as you describe and can be considerable.

Yeh, I understand what you're saying here, and there's no doubt that you need to keep your "core" rigid when the pole hits the box. I just don't think this includes the bottom arm. And this is what this survey was for.

You see, once your takeoff foot leaves the ground, your momentum (from the run/takeoff) is FIXED. Some of this "force" is going to be transferred into the pole. Some of it will stay with your body - allowing it to swing. And a little bit will also be lost (energy loss - leakage). It's a CLOSED SYSTEM, so there's no other place for the energy to go. Just these 3. The trick is to balance the 3. Minimize leakage whilst keeping the swing going. If you press with the bottom arm, you transfer MORE energy into the pole, at the expense of a slower swing. But if you do that - as the Feofanova vid just showed - you won't be in the proper body position to extend efficiently off the pole as it uncoils.

Votes so far, after 533 views: 8 no-push; 2 push a bit; 1 push; 3 other.

... Finally: I would invite everyone to go to Stabhoch.com and watch all of Svetlana Feofanova’s vaults. She seems to be almost perfect in her take off (always a free take off) and the transfer of momentum to the pole. In particular watch the movement of her head. Let me know what you think.

Thanks for pointing her out. Great takeoff!

I don't really understand why you mention her head movement, though. I don't think it's important. It should just stay in it's natural position.

Kirk

[vaultman18]

Nice post Kirk. Lots and lots of wheat.

[dougb]

To answer some of your questions

I don't really understand why you mention her head movement, though. I don't think it's important. It should just stay in it's natural position.

She keeps her head down with her focus straight ahead until her trail leg reaches the chord then looks straight up with the swing. It appears to me that she is using the weight of the head to initiate a positive move. In gymnastics the position of the head is often critical.



dougb wrote:
... What is clear is that there have been great vaults that don’t fit all of the above requirements. Take a look at Brad Walker's USA record vault ...
Can you expand on this? I didn't think it was "near perfect" technique either, but maybe for different reasons than yours.

Brads take off appeared to be about a foot under but he was able to adjust and set the record. I suspect that you have issues with his tuck and shoot. He is not a classic Petrov vaulter.





dougb wrote:
... Really, all I am saying is that to set up the above, the vaulter should be as rigid “as possible” when transferring his momentum to the pole. That momentum provides most of the bending force. The other bending force is as you describe and can be considerable.

Yeh, I understand what you're saying here, and there's no doubt that you need to keep your "core" rigid when the pole hits the box. I just don't think this includes the bottom arm. And this is what this survey was for.



A question. If you were vaulting without the lower arm, then what would keep your body from swinging around the top hand when the pole hit the back of the box?

doug

[altius]

Take a look at Chapter 26 in BTB2 – this deals with this issue in detail. However in brief, the vaulter should drive both arms up through the pole as strongly as possible - see Feofanova 26.3 – indeed they should think of continuing this upward punch of the arms after they have left the ground - see Tarasov 26.4.

However the secret is in the positioning of the bottom hand on the pole in such a way that when the pole hits the back of the box the arm cannot resist the forces involved so the hand is driven back over the vaulters head and the pole is loaded with the top arm –as shown in many photographs of Bubka and others in the book. The most obvious sign of the correct positioning of the hand and the angle of the forearm is that the elbow moves outside instead of under the pole – Annika Becker 26.6a-c. The correct position of the hand at the end of the plant is largely determined by the way the pole is carried through the run and plant – 26.8.

The bottom arm is NOT passive - it drives up and through the pole but is forced to flex by the forces involved and the relatively weak position it is in. As the pole bends, the bottom hand and arm chase the pole. The extent to which the bottom arm applies force to the pole as it moves towards full bend is debatable but is anyway intuitive in my opinion – like much of what the vaulter does after they leave the ground.

[joebro391]

A question. If you were vaulting without the lower arm, then what would keep your body from swinging around the top hand when the pole hit the back of the box?

...That's what supposed to happen...CENTRIPETAL FORCE...I think that you're too used to watching old vaulters if poor technique. Not to say that the did A LOT right, like Feofanova, for instance. She did A LOT right, and that's why she's one of the greatest girls in the sport. HOWEVER, she also did some things wrong, as layed out by Kirk, above. And the things that she did wrong, are the things that you THINK she did right.

My question to you, is this: Why are you studying, for lack of a better word, 'obsolete/outdated' vaulters? Like I said before, there are a lot of great vaulters out there to study, other than Bubka and Isi. However, watch which ones you DO study, such as Feofanova, for staying 'too' rigid, or McMichael, for blocking out his bottom arm so much. When in doubt, just watch bubka/Isi or Tarasov; the 3 greatest technicians (and in turn, vaulters) or all time. -6P

[KirkB]

Brad's take off appeared to be about a foot under but he was able to adjust and set the record. I suspect that you have issues with his tuck and shoot. He is not a classic Petrov vaulter.

I don't know that he was a foot under. The vids were very long-range and hard to see the details of his takeoff. I wouldn't call it a "tuck and shoot". He does follow the Petrov model - to a point - but his style is more of a "pike and shoot". I see that as better than tuck/shoot, but still sub-optimal compared to classic Petrov. But as far as pike/shoots go, his is the most incredible style that I've ever seen!

A question. If you were vaulting without the lower arm, then what would keep your body from swinging around the top hand when the pole hit the back of the box?

You WANT your body to swing around the top hand. But FIRST, I think you want to get into that pre-stretched upright C position, so that your downswing is more powerful and effective. This is not the same as freezing in a passive C position. Rather, you should jump into that stretched position, then IMMEDIATELY pop out of it by downswinging vigorously. So to answer your question, what delays this action by a split second is the driving of the chest/hips forwards, as the trail leg stretches back. If you're inferring that pressure with the bottom arm is needed to delay the swing a bit, consider this alternative!

Take a look at Chapter 26 in BTB2 ...

I re-read this chapter tonight. Keep in mind that you really need to read the entire chapter, to take in all of the context of these quotes. It talks mostly of the free takeoff and pre-jump, but there's some good tidbits about what the bottom arm does (or should do). Here's some ...

... both hands are driven up as hard and as high as possible. The athlete should have the feeling that this high punch of the hands continues after take off. It is here that a narrow grip is an advantage. ...

This was part of a quote from Bubka. It is NOT stated whether this is before or after the pole hits the box. If it's during a pre-jump, then this would be BEFORE. The reason why it's an advantage is because you can reach higher, and also because you can't push as easily or as much.

... the body is solid from the top hand to the take off foot. This is important because much of the kinetic energy generated by the run up and take off must be transmitted to the pole through the top hand. ... Unless there is a tight connection between the top hand and the rest of the body, energy will bleed away as it is absorbed into the shock of the take off.

I think dougb and I both agree on this point. However, BTB2 doesn't mention the bottom arm in this description - contrary to dougb's opinion but in support of mine.

... the lower hand and arm are carefully positioned at the instant the pole tip hits the back of the box. This allows the bottom arm to initially hit the pole and then to dynamically relax as the top arm loads the pole. ... The pole initially begins to flex as the result of the kinetic energy transferred to it naturally by the vaulter.

I interpret this as THOROUGH THE TOP HAND ONLY. I think that's what "natural" means. The "unnatural" way to transfer this energy would be to push with the bottom hand.

While "relax" sounds "passive", I don't think it is. If you don't relax your bottom arm, then you'll kill your swing (bad).

... driving their chest up and through the opening shoulders. This action sets up the pre-stretch of the muscles of the trunk and trail leg. Remember that this movement is only possible if the bottom arm and hand have been precisely positioned on the pole ...

So if you have a narrow grip, and you drive your chest up/thru, you'll get to that upright C frame, as Altius says in his post (above) ...

... the secret is in the positioning of the bottom hand on the pole in such a way that when the pole hits the back of the box the arm cannot resist the forces involved so the hand is driven back over the vaulters head and the pole is loaded with the top arm ... the elbow moves outside instead of under the pole ...

The bottom arm is NOT passive - it drives up and through the pole but is forced to flex by the forces involved and the relatively weak position it is in.

I buy that.

... Why are you studying, for lack of a better word, 'obsolete/outdated' vaulters?

Calm down, 6P. Feofanova has a very powerful plant/takeoff that's worth studying. As long as you recognize her flaws as well as her strengths, I think it's good to analyze the styles of various vaulters.

And leaving the best for last, here's 2 more quotes from the footnote of Chapter 26 of BTB2 ...

Petrov states that while the bottom hand plays a major role in positioning the pole into the box (but) it should not be used to initiate the bend in the pole. The pole should begin to flex as the result of the initial impulse of the body as the foot leaves the ground at take off, but the major bend occurs as the result of the pole being loaded thorugh the top hand.

And finally ...

Despite this, our experience suggests that young athletes learning to bend a pole may need to use some pressure through the bottom hand and arm as they learn to 'stay behind the pole'

I agree that you can't expect a beginner to put all the weight of their run/takeoff momentum into the pole via the top hand only. This takes considerable strength and gymnatistic ability. But as an intermediate or advanced vaulter, I think you need to strive to put more and more emphasis on the top hand, and less and less on the bottom hand.

There is the danger, though, that a beginner will imprint this "push" into their brains, and it will be a bad habit to get out of. I think the earlier they learn proper Petrov technique (no push), the better. I lean towards learning this technique on gym equipment rather than by actual vaulting.

Kirk

[golfdane]

To reiterate Alan:
What is desirable MUST be physically possible.