I am curious what other coaches think about the pieces or elements of the approach.
For example: what does it mean to have good posture? How important is it? What's "good" posture do for you?
How do you coach the proper way to gain the best speed possible? do you start slowly and try to reach maximum speed just before take-off? or do you try to accellerate at the very beginning of the run and try to controll the last 4 or last 6 strides?
Do walking steps at the beginning help or hurt or have no effect? How about a skip step?
If you use a mid do you measure the distance from the start of the run measured from the back of the box to the mid? If so what are some of those numbers for a 5, 6, 7, 8+ left run and where is the mid?
Just as a reference here is what Petrov says:
“This final 3rd part of the run is characterized by the increased rate of the run while the length of the stride remains the same, thus achieving the maximum speed of the run-up.”
Petrov also states this about the start of the approach run:
“If in the beginning of the run the main effort is made at the push from behind, in the middle part, as the speed increases, the athlete is stretching and switches over to the active “drawing through” of the hips forward, accompanied by the active counter movement forward of the swinging leg which is bent to the maximum.”
have you measured the "elements" of the approach?
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Re: have you measured the "elements" of the approach?
I like the way this question has been posted so I thought I would put in my opinion and maybe stir some helpful conversations or alternative ways to think....
Posture is vital... Rather running with a pole in your hands or without one, posture and position of the hips in terms of the relative distance from the ground is the top thing to look for. Ideally I look for the runner to have the tallest hips possible when trying to run fast at foot strike, this will allow the foot to strike under the COM with the straightest leg possible (obviously not locked out). If the hips are sunk or low to the ground this will usually result in a foot strike that is significantly in front of the center of mass (COM) and the appearance of the athlete sitting in a chair. This is not a thing you want for achieving top speeds. Foot contacts under the COM with tall hips will allow for quick ground contacts times due to the leg landing under your COM and with the leg already almost straight on contact. Therefore, not much time is needed to finish the process. Next, this will allow the foot to move from the ground to the hips very quickly which will in return bring the leg down to the ground very quickly automatically, but in a high accelerated manner. The front leg will not touch down till the foot that has left the ground reaches the height of the hips on its recovery. The faster the foot comes from the ground to the hips the faster your foot will cycle back to the ground automatically. In our system we teach get the foot back to the hips as fast as possible, we teach front side mechanics take care of themselves. I realize this is different than what most people teach, but watch any video the front leg will not hit till the recovery leg hits the height of the hips. Plus in our system height of hips is #1 thing we look for and more important the the speed your foot moves to the ground. Athlete with the faster ground contacts will usually hit higher speeds.
So is postural alignment important you bet..... If you don't know what proper foot strikes should look like to run fast you never will run fast. This is all set up by the position and height of the hips at touch down. The higher the hips the easier the ability to have foot strikes under the COM when running at top end. The alignment of the pelvis rather rotated forward or backwards takes care of itself if the athlete is not trying to push behind them on ground contact. Instead our system teaches on ground contact the athlete is trying to get the foot to the hips as fast as possible after touch down. For a perfect example of this check out http://www.chasingbolt.com. Race bolt, try to beat him the first time. Than just lose and watch him run. This is the best close up video I have found. Look for height of hips and foot strike under COM. Notice how quickly his foot comes off the ground and back to his hips. Oh yeah 18 foot strides at a rate of around .44 seconds per stride (right and left foot contact) and top end speed of .42 per 5m... can you say sick....
Now in terms of using this into a Pole Vault approach... The first question to ask is what is the athletes top end speed (top speed over 5m)? Second question is based on their acceleration abilities how long does it take them to reach that speed? We teach the approach is an all out accelerated run from the first step they take. Without a pole a typical athlete with top end speeds of .58 over 5m will usually hit Top End speed around 20-25 m and be upright running at Top End. With a pole this is pushed a tad deeper due to the fact you can not come out with the same lean to over come inertia as you could without a pole so top end at this speed is hit around 25 - 30 m into an approach which is roughly 82 to 100 feet. A vaulter at this speed is looking for a takeoff roughly around 12 to 14 feet from the box putting the athlete at around 95 to 113 feet. This is roughly the distance most cover from 7 lefts or rights (14 total steps). This speed is only hit if the athlete performed a full accelerated run from the first step they took. The faster you are the longer it takes to reach top end based on basic understanding of acceleration curves. I typically teach that once you hit this speed you want to hold it for around 1 - 2 steps leading into the finally two steps depending on which foot you hit the speed at, but this is advanced. Let's look at a tad slower speed and how it works as well.
Lets now take .68 over 5m (a decent time for a girl) this is usually hit around 15 - 18 m and be upright running at Top End. A vaulter will push that a little deeper to 18 - 21 m with a pole into an approach which is roughly 59 to 69 feet add 9 to 11 feet for take off putting the athlete at around 69 to 79 feet and hit roughly around 7 lefts or rights (14 total steps) for a girl at this speed. Once again she will need to perform an all out accelerated run from the first step and the same principle as above for an advanced technique.
Our system teaches that speed takes time to build. The faster you are the deeper and longer it takes to reach top end. A test I do to determine when and how long an athlete reaches Top End is to do Fly 30's from a 15, 20 and 25 meter acceleration zone (I personally use traps for accuracy). If they run the same time for all three than you know they reach top end by roughly 15 meters and have a top end slower than .60 per 5m. If each split gets faster I would bet they have a top end around .53 - .56. The biggest thing this proves is with proper pole carry and drop and correct execution of the final 2 steps so you have a last second acceleration into the plant otherwise referred to as the penultimate and take off steps, THE LENGTH OF THE APPROACH IS DICTATED BY THE SPEED THE ATHLETE CAN ACHIEVE AND HANDLE. The faster they are the longer the approach because it will take them longer to reach top end. This is only advantageous if the athlete can handle and use the speed at takeoff. You need an up spring type takeoff and if they are running to fast the take off will be flat so you must play with it a tad.
Personally speaking we do a lot of Trap work early season to identify when athletes hit certain speeds so we can start to figure out the number of steps that each athlete should take to reach their proper speed potentials.
Hope this is what you were looking for.
Posture is vital... Rather running with a pole in your hands or without one, posture and position of the hips in terms of the relative distance from the ground is the top thing to look for. Ideally I look for the runner to have the tallest hips possible when trying to run fast at foot strike, this will allow the foot to strike under the COM with the straightest leg possible (obviously not locked out). If the hips are sunk or low to the ground this will usually result in a foot strike that is significantly in front of the center of mass (COM) and the appearance of the athlete sitting in a chair. This is not a thing you want for achieving top speeds. Foot contacts under the COM with tall hips will allow for quick ground contacts times due to the leg landing under your COM and with the leg already almost straight on contact. Therefore, not much time is needed to finish the process. Next, this will allow the foot to move from the ground to the hips very quickly which will in return bring the leg down to the ground very quickly automatically, but in a high accelerated manner. The front leg will not touch down till the foot that has left the ground reaches the height of the hips on its recovery. The faster the foot comes from the ground to the hips the faster your foot will cycle back to the ground automatically. In our system we teach get the foot back to the hips as fast as possible, we teach front side mechanics take care of themselves. I realize this is different than what most people teach, but watch any video the front leg will not hit till the recovery leg hits the height of the hips. Plus in our system height of hips is #1 thing we look for and more important the the speed your foot moves to the ground. Athlete with the faster ground contacts will usually hit higher speeds.
So is postural alignment important you bet..... If you don't know what proper foot strikes should look like to run fast you never will run fast. This is all set up by the position and height of the hips at touch down. The higher the hips the easier the ability to have foot strikes under the COM when running at top end. The alignment of the pelvis rather rotated forward or backwards takes care of itself if the athlete is not trying to push behind them on ground contact. Instead our system teaches on ground contact the athlete is trying to get the foot to the hips as fast as possible after touch down. For a perfect example of this check out http://www.chasingbolt.com. Race bolt, try to beat him the first time. Than just lose and watch him run. This is the best close up video I have found. Look for height of hips and foot strike under COM. Notice how quickly his foot comes off the ground and back to his hips. Oh yeah 18 foot strides at a rate of around .44 seconds per stride (right and left foot contact) and top end speed of .42 per 5m... can you say sick....
Now in terms of using this into a Pole Vault approach... The first question to ask is what is the athletes top end speed (top speed over 5m)? Second question is based on their acceleration abilities how long does it take them to reach that speed? We teach the approach is an all out accelerated run from the first step they take. Without a pole a typical athlete with top end speeds of .58 over 5m will usually hit Top End speed around 20-25 m and be upright running at Top End. With a pole this is pushed a tad deeper due to the fact you can not come out with the same lean to over come inertia as you could without a pole so top end at this speed is hit around 25 - 30 m into an approach which is roughly 82 to 100 feet. A vaulter at this speed is looking for a takeoff roughly around 12 to 14 feet from the box putting the athlete at around 95 to 113 feet. This is roughly the distance most cover from 7 lefts or rights (14 total steps). This speed is only hit if the athlete performed a full accelerated run from the first step they took. The faster you are the longer it takes to reach top end based on basic understanding of acceleration curves. I typically teach that once you hit this speed you want to hold it for around 1 - 2 steps leading into the finally two steps depending on which foot you hit the speed at, but this is advanced. Let's look at a tad slower speed and how it works as well.
Lets now take .68 over 5m (a decent time for a girl) this is usually hit around 15 - 18 m and be upright running at Top End. A vaulter will push that a little deeper to 18 - 21 m with a pole into an approach which is roughly 59 to 69 feet add 9 to 11 feet for take off putting the athlete at around 69 to 79 feet and hit roughly around 7 lefts or rights (14 total steps) for a girl at this speed. Once again she will need to perform an all out accelerated run from the first step and the same principle as above for an advanced technique.
Our system teaches that speed takes time to build. The faster you are the deeper and longer it takes to reach top end. A test I do to determine when and how long an athlete reaches Top End is to do Fly 30's from a 15, 20 and 25 meter acceleration zone (I personally use traps for accuracy). If they run the same time for all three than you know they reach top end by roughly 15 meters and have a top end slower than .60 per 5m. If each split gets faster I would bet they have a top end around .53 - .56. The biggest thing this proves is with proper pole carry and drop and correct execution of the final 2 steps so you have a last second acceleration into the plant otherwise referred to as the penultimate and take off steps, THE LENGTH OF THE APPROACH IS DICTATED BY THE SPEED THE ATHLETE CAN ACHIEVE AND HANDLE. The faster they are the longer the approach because it will take them longer to reach top end. This is only advantageous if the athlete can handle and use the speed at takeoff. You need an up spring type takeoff and if they are running to fast the take off will be flat so you must play with it a tad.
Personally speaking we do a lot of Trap work early season to identify when athletes hit certain speeds so we can start to figure out the number of steps that each athlete should take to reach their proper speed potentials.
Hope this is what you were looking for.
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Re: have you measured the "elements" of the approach?
Forgot the Mid Question...
Personally on most of my College and Elite athletes I use video analysis to determine their exact stride lengths and frequency at Top End for each individual athlete and not based off some chart. The combination of these two figures determine their top end speed over 5m..... We do a lot of technique work and attempt to correct mechanical flaws in their stride which will either open up their stride length naturally or will increase their stride frequency with no effect to stride length thus increase top end speed. This is done in the fall when most are only doing work capacity work we are doing work capacity and speed development work.... Its amazing what happens after 8 weeks and then the switch is only on speed development results sky racket.
I personally take mid marks and approach selection from a two prong attack. We work on their acceleration mechanics and abilities and determine a distance that it takes to cover x number of steps leading into the mid. We practice this over and over without worry about the final 6 steps. We use a 6 step check mark and a 2 step check mark. Plus the first 4 to 6 steps are scripted so that no matter the length of the approach these 4-6 steps are the same every time rather it is a short approach or full approach. It is the same basic start of the acceleration curve. I use the 2 step mark for the same reason I do it with the Long Jumpers and Triple Jumpers the take off happens so fast this is the best way for me to know if they reached or performed the mechanics of the last two steps correctly. If they hit the mid and 2 step mark and are under I will put money on the fact hands got out front and they reached.
next we determine what speeds they hit based on the approach they desire to achieve and match up their stride lengths, frequency and take off spot (including a correctly performed final two steps). This becomes that athletes mid mark and than add in their programmed acceleration curve to make up their approach. This is than practiced over and over again off the runway putting marks on the track. This is performed leading into the main indoor season and then recycled during the first couple weeks in the outdoor season in case of changes in speed. They do tons of reps and small adjustments are made till they hit every mark over and over. This is also performed throughout the year to make sure reinforcement is present and to ensure their is not any dramatic changes mid season.
It is important to note that by the time this is taken place we have usually already gone through 8 to 12 weeks of speed training attempting to get their base speed faster while at the same time we are working on their pole carry and drop so that we can be as efficient as possible coming down the run way. The bulk of our top end speed training has been accomplished and we are in speed maintenance phase.
Personally on most of my College and Elite athletes I use video analysis to determine their exact stride lengths and frequency at Top End for each individual athlete and not based off some chart. The combination of these two figures determine their top end speed over 5m..... We do a lot of technique work and attempt to correct mechanical flaws in their stride which will either open up their stride length naturally or will increase their stride frequency with no effect to stride length thus increase top end speed. This is done in the fall when most are only doing work capacity work we are doing work capacity and speed development work.... Its amazing what happens after 8 weeks and then the switch is only on speed development results sky racket.
I personally take mid marks and approach selection from a two prong attack. We work on their acceleration mechanics and abilities and determine a distance that it takes to cover x number of steps leading into the mid. We practice this over and over without worry about the final 6 steps. We use a 6 step check mark and a 2 step check mark. Plus the first 4 to 6 steps are scripted so that no matter the length of the approach these 4-6 steps are the same every time rather it is a short approach or full approach. It is the same basic start of the acceleration curve. I use the 2 step mark for the same reason I do it with the Long Jumpers and Triple Jumpers the take off happens so fast this is the best way for me to know if they reached or performed the mechanics of the last two steps correctly. If they hit the mid and 2 step mark and are under I will put money on the fact hands got out front and they reached.
next we determine what speeds they hit based on the approach they desire to achieve and match up their stride lengths, frequency and take off spot (including a correctly performed final two steps). This becomes that athletes mid mark and than add in their programmed acceleration curve to make up their approach. This is than practiced over and over again off the runway putting marks on the track. This is performed leading into the main indoor season and then recycled during the first couple weeks in the outdoor season in case of changes in speed. They do tons of reps and small adjustments are made till they hit every mark over and over. This is also performed throughout the year to make sure reinforcement is present and to ensure their is not any dramatic changes mid season.
It is important to note that by the time this is taken place we have usually already gone through 8 to 12 weeks of speed training attempting to get their base speed faster while at the same time we are working on their pole carry and drop so that we can be as efficient as possible coming down the run way. The bulk of our top end speed training has been accomplished and we are in speed maintenance phase.
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Re: have you measured the "elements" of the approach?
ADTF, awesome post. I like to see the numbers and the time line. It is extremely close to our system. Some of us do not have access due to practice times and days. So I have devised a set of rundrills that basically allow us to train using progressive stride lengths and stride numbers. By marking the last six strides on individual lanes on the track with a different stride length in each and a progressively longer run in each (ie. the first lane might be a six left approach, the next a 7, then 8 and a 9). I can time each run in Dartfish and determine stride frequency and speed. It's very similar with different tools. But it allows for focus on posture, run mechanics, penultimate and upward impulse at to, pole drop mechanics etc.
I know other coaches have other techniques and the purpose for the post is to try and see the richness that is around the country with regard to this aspect of the vault. I'm sure some may be able to get some new insights, but for me I'd like to see how other coaches think about the subject of the post. Especially programs that have been well developed....and been around a while. This is very good stuff. Thank you for your response.
I know other coaches have other techniques and the purpose for the post is to try and see the richness that is around the country with regard to this aspect of the vault. I'm sure some may be able to get some new insights, but for me I'd like to see how other coaches think about the subject of the post. Especially programs that have been well developed....and been around a while. This is very good stuff. Thank you for your response.
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Re: have you measured the "elements" of the approach?
This was just a nutshell of the speed development program and use to the vault.
The spreedsheet and time line is quite interesting to look at for the atheltes. I use it a lot more for my short sprinters.
It shows them exactly what they can run for a 100 and 55m dash based off their 25m acceleration splits and then based on their stride length and frequency what speed they are hitting. Next we can look at the chart and determine if they want to run a certain time than this is what must happen; either a certain change in stride length with no change in frequency or a reduction in frequency with no change in stride length. Than the program spits out their new 100m or 55/60m time.
It does a great job of showing the athlete that in the end sprinting and running is a giant math equation and unless the variables are adjusted just right their speed and times will not change.
The spreedsheet and time line is quite interesting to look at for the atheltes. I use it a lot more for my short sprinters.
It shows them exactly what they can run for a 100 and 55m dash based off their 25m acceleration splits and then based on their stride length and frequency what speed they are hitting. Next we can look at the chart and determine if they want to run a certain time than this is what must happen; either a certain change in stride length with no change in frequency or a reduction in frequency with no change in stride length. Than the program spits out their new 100m or 55/60m time.
It does a great job of showing the athlete that in the end sprinting and running is a giant math equation and unless the variables are adjusted just right their speed and times will not change.
Re: have you measured the "elements" of the approach?
hey
thinking this should be in this thread.........
dj
thinking this should be in this thread.........
dj
HOW TO…
Break a world record
By Yelena Isinbayeva
from SPIKESMAG.COM
PHASE I
The first things to get right are the run-up and the correct hold on the pole. In the last
six steps of my run-up (left) my knee lift becomes lower. The picture below is the plant
and take-off. You will see that the top of the pole is bending, so I did a good plant. The
most important parts of the vault are the run-up, the plant and the take-off. If you do
something wrong here you will not perform a good roll back [the next phase of the pole vault].
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Re: have you measured the "elements" of the approach?
I was just watching the videos of Duplantis.
Watch the 1991 video if you want to see where the footstrikes of a vaulter should be roughly. This is a great example of roughly what I was talking about above.
At the end of the video they have a slow down of the approach and vault. Notice where his foot stikes are in comparison to his hips. Even more astonding is watch his last left and where his foot strikes down. This may be almost to far behind his hips but it is sick to think it can be done.
Watch the 1991 video if you want to see where the footstrikes of a vaulter should be roughly. This is a great example of roughly what I was talking about above.
At the end of the video they have a slow down of the approach and vault. Notice where his foot stikes are in comparison to his hips. Even more astonding is watch his last left and where his foot strikes down. This may be almost to far behind his hips but it is sick to think it can be done.
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