Bemiller/Mack Model

[captainfalcon43]

There shouldn't be this much arguement.

Tim Mack- Held lower/ 121 cm push.

Bubka- Held higher/ could have cleared over 121 cm had he been pushed or not driven by money. The jump in Athens was over 121 cm over his handgrip.

Bubka was better in every aspect. It was his excellent run, takeoff, and swing that gave Bubka his success. Bubka was faster, but he was also shorter. He put more energy into the pole and has had the world's highest vaults (without even needing to put the bar at a height where he needed to clear with a 121 cm push).

[dj]

let's go full circle here and have someone, anyone, everyone point out where the deficiencies are in this 601.. 121 pushoff t-mack jump...

no hypotheticals... just pure technial observations...

dj

[vaultman18]

let's go full circle here and have someone, anyone, everyone point out where the deficiencies are in this 601.. 121 pushoff t-mack jump...

no hypotheticals... just pure technial observations...

It is 6.01 and not 6.02,6.03,6.05,6.06,6.07,6.08,6.09,6.10,6.11,6.12,6.13,6.14,6.15m
Most of which Bubka did multiple times. DJ I will give you that Tim was/is influenced by Roman none or very very little. No one has said that Tim's PR jump of 6.01 is not a great jump because it is a great jump. But there is no way it is better than Bubka's 6.01 in athens in 97'.

[hotdam]

this has been a great thread to read. there is a lot of value in having peers review your work. it reminds me of a sign an experienced professor had outside his door: "In God we trust...all others bring data." there will always be these kinds of debates in the pole vault until we get more data. it is a complex sport that lends itself to much subjectivity. if i had the time and the money, i'd be very interested in setting up quality studies that would take the subjectness out and replace it with objective data (just liek the rest of teh scientific world). there are so many opportunities for research in this area. should any of you young, intellectual vaulters be scientifically inclined, we would all benefit from quality research in this sport. but until then it's going to my word vs yours.

one question before i dive into this thread...how high was scott huffman holding when he jumped a then american record 5.97? if i'm not mistaken, it was on a 5 meter pole. can anyone verify (and i mean verify, not guess or make your best estimate)???

i'm jsut wondering if he didn't push higher than 121cm. holding < 4.96 m would put him over 121. I have a hunch he was holding under that, but i need data!!!

[altius]

"or allan are you admitting (if you could find a way to get a russian coach involved) that it would be ok that tim was more efficient or that tim had a more efficient jump, and that a jumper with tim’s efficiency and more “speedâ€Â

[JKSvault]

You are saying it is more effcient to run slower and use softer pole.

I am a little confused as to how I am saying the above statement. You have completely misconstrued what I said. What I DID say was that Mack, who happens to have brought less speed into the plant, produced more energy out of the pole, hence a higher push off and a more efficient jump.

But I will contend that jumping 6.15m is more effcient than jumping 6.01.

Scenario is the name of the game tonight. Lets say you have a vaulter who can hold 4.45m and a more athletic decathlete who can hold 4.75m. At a meet, your vaulter jumps 4.75 and your decathlete jumps 4.90. Would you say that your decathlete’s 4.90 jump was more efficient because of the fact that it was a higher height than 4.75?

There shouldn't be this much arguement.

Tim Mack- Held lower/ 121 cm push.

Bubka- Held higher/ could have cleared over 121 cm had he been pushed or not driven by money. The jump in Athens was over 121 cm over his handgrip.

I am speaking in terms entirely based on the pushoff that actually occurred as a result of his given jump, not what could have been. If we want to get into terms of “well if you look at this jump, his hip height was far higher….â€Â

[vaultman18]

I agree it should not be about what could have happen. But you are only using numbers from two jumps (Mack 6.01 and Bubka 6.15). It is easy to understand why you use Tim's 6.01 because it is hi PR and you use Bubka PR for the same reason. What I am saying is you should use all the jumps over 6.01 for Bubka and see how the numbers compare then. A more complete conclusion could be obtained by using all data of 6.00m clears by all that have made this "magic" hieght. When you only use the numbers on the 6 meter chart it is misleading and incomplete data. What is effcient at 6.01 may not be the same at 6.15 if it were one might think more vaulters would/could jump 6.15. Yet only one man has and it can not be said that it was his speed alone that did it. If that were the case we should hand Osafa Powell a pole and teach him to "hit a few positions" as Slick VT said and watch him jump a WR. Is not also possible that the deficiencies in Mack's Technique is what kept him from running faster on the runway?

[JKSvault]

A more complete conclusion could be obtained by using all data of 6.00m clears by all that have made this "magic" hieght.

I have done exactly this. I am working on a way to most effectively present this information to everyone. Once I figure out how, the data can be interpreted and used to compare jumpers at 14 ft, 15 ft, 16ft, etc...

If you can get me the numbers for all of Bubka's 6m jumps I would be more than happy to plug them in, but for now, I can only use the numbers that are presented before me.

Maybe we are starting to get somewhere vaultman

[vaultman18]

JKSvault
I am not sure where or if they exsist for public viewing. I will try to find the data. One other issue I have with this, you stated Tim put less energy in the system and recieved more back but how do you actually know how much energy Tim put in and recieved? I know he cleared 6.01 and held 5m and the push was 121cm but the bar height has nothing to do with the actual energy system in/out. I think it could also be said Bubka used less energy becuase he used less push. Is the push considered energy? I know you have a formula to calculate this but does it acount for variables that are unmeasurable? I am not trying to argue I just want to know. This is all opinion as of now because there has been no real scientific data presented by anyone me included.

[dj]

good morning

the logic is this... if you have 2% more speed.. 2% more grip (about one hand) a takeoff out 2% from your previous PR 2% more flex... 2%..

a 6:01 vaulter.. any 6:01 would jump 2% higher ?? is that 12cm? somebody help me here..

i will say this my chart says if you hold one grip.. 3.75inches.. you should jump 6"higher.. of course you would have to run faster which is reflected in a "MID" 12"/one foot further out...

what is interesting here... almost everyone has contradicted themselves in some fashion.. always going to the “world recordâ€Â

[dj]

The only way you can exploit extra speed is to use a free or ideally a pre jump take off where the pole is not loaded before the athlete leaves the ground -in that way extra speed can be used to drive the pole up and forward - not to compress it.

allans quote i left out at the only way...............

[Tim McMichael]

[quote]George moore/browning had to present it as “synthic bambooâ€Â