Take off and Penetration Problems

[agapit]

"My friend, I could tell you about clever technical issues"

Aren't you being a bit clever there yourself old friend? Looks as if you have caught the speed disease that was prevalent in the US in the 90's - and forgotten Petrov's emphasis on perfecting 'clever' technical issues.

No I was just looking at a particular athlete and his jumps and he is over gripping for his speed. And clearly you can see, that he could improve his run and run faster. If I look at his development priorities, I would say addressing his running structure would offer the best benefit at this time.

And speed issue was a big deal in Ole Soviet Union. Bubka clocked 10m/s on the last 5m and all who was trying to go 5.90+ expected to be faster then 9.6m/s, so I don’t think it was just an American craze. I remember in 1987 in a locker room in Sochi Petrov said that the biggest discovery they have made was that the simplified model developed a natural demand for more physical input and in the sense it became its own training tool for faster run and work on the pole. I called it a "positive feedback loop" in my writings, but I have heard it from the Man first, back in the 80s.

P.S. I would wait with the criticism just for 4 more weeks while we are putting last touches here, after that it is a fair game

[brad757johnson]

Since then I've had a lot better luck clearing bars. I jumped a PR of 15'6 on a 15 180 holding 14'7 but I still have been unable to get on 15 7 poles. In the meet that I PRed at I really emphasied my speed and I was able to really get deep into the pit. I think that my speed really came into play and that I was really moving the pole to vertical. The only thing is I can push a 15 180 with my standards at 26 and them I try to hold up a hand on my 15 7 175 and I can barely get in. My coach says its something to do with the fact that the sail piece is raised up and I need to jump up to it. But I'm starting to get more consistent day to day with my bigger sticks so things are definitely getting better.

[altius]

P.S. I would wait with the criticism just for 4 more weeks while we are putting last touches here, after that it is a fair game"

What criticism?????

[coachjvinson]

...I jumped a PR of 15'6 on a 15 180 holding 14'7 but I still have been unable to get on 15 7 poles.

The only thing is I can push a 15 180 with my standards at 26 and them I try to hold up a hand on my 15 7 175 and I can barely get in.

15 180 = 15'7" 170
15 185 = 15'7" 175

if the 15 180 is a soft flex and the 15'7" 175 is a stiff flex the poles could be too far apart: especially if your run speed is maxed out. Do you have a 15' 7" 170 that is close in flex to the 15'7" 175, or a 15' 180/185 that is stiffer in flex (but not too far apart in flex) than your 15' 180 that you are jumping well on.

I know this post is older and the problem may have been solved already. If so, what was the limiting factor and how did you work through it?

My coach says its something to do with the fact that the sail piece is raised up and I need to jump up to it. But I'm starting to get more consistent day to day with my bigger sticks so things are definitely getting better.

Does anyone have insight on this?? Is it simply the possible discrepancy or gap in poles as indicated above or does the sail piece come into play??

Also, if anyone has insight on how to successfully overcome a larger gap from pole to pole in the same series or from one series to the next please advise.

Responses from both the athlete's perspective and the coach's perspective are appreciated.
V
(or direction to a previous post covering the topic)
thank you...

[PVDaddy]

Well, keeping your bottom arm elbow out to the left (which you do very well) AND instead of "tensing" your arm muscles at the plant, CONTINUALLY press both hands straight up. Those two things (bottom elbow out and constantly "REACHING/PRESSING both hands straight up) together will "disengage" the shoulders from isometric contraction (keep them relaxed). The key for you is the ACTION of constantly pressing BOTH hands straight up

Well said!

Seems to be rowing as well. I think that's a mistake.

To bad he's a tuck and shooter! Would love to see that trail leg go to the top hand also like Altius mentioned!

[KirkB]

So how do you press hard, but relax the shoulders at the same time? Well, keeping your bottom arm elbow out to the left (which you do very well) AND instead of "tensing" your arm muscles at the plant, CONTINUALLY press both hands straight up. Those two things (bottom elbow out and constantly "REACHING/PRESSING both hands straight up) together will "disengage" the shoulders from isometric contraction (keep them relaxed). The key for you is the ACTION of constantly pressing BOTH hands straight up. There's a big difference between a high plant and the ACTION of constantly pressing high hands at plant and take-off. The first is what you are doing (isometric contraction of the arm muscles, aka a form of "blocking"). The later creates relaxed shoulders and allows the body to move into the "pocket" as it is sometimes refered to. Here's a snapshot of you and one of Bubka at the same point:

Superpipe, I nominate your analysis of Brad's technique to be the most "spot on".

I realize this thread is almost a year old, but the troubles that Brad experiences are so common to high-school males in the 4-5m range that it deserves bumping.

I don't have much to add to Superpipe's analysis, other than to note that Brad's pic is earlier after takeoff than Serge's. You need to read his full posts, and view his pics.

Even though Serge is much further into his "C" (trail leg is much further off the ground), he's in a much more elastic position, with chest and shoulders more forwards, and top hand and trail leg more back - essentially a much more pronounced C than Brad's.

Superpipe has correctly identifed the cause of this.

Brad's coach said:

... its because I need to keep pushing the pole and keep pressure on the pole but I cannot wrap my head around what he is trying to say.

It's so easy to misunderstand what is meant by "PUSHING" and "KEEP PRESSURE ON THE POLE". This is often misinterpreted as a FORWARDS push or pressure (primarily of the bottom arm - but also of the top arm), but in fact (as Superpipe correctly explains) it's an UPWARDS push or pressure.

It could be that Brad's coach meant what Superpipe said and Brad misunderstood this, but it may also be that Brad's coach actually MEANT for Brad to press FORWARDS instead of UPWARDS (which would be dead wrong - one of the most common HS coaching mistakes made). The inevitable outcome of pushing or pressing forwards with the bottom is a pause in the tuck (or V or pike) position, and a flag out (shoot) over the bar. This is commonly called the tuck-shoot technique, and the fallacy of this technique begins exactly as Superpipe explained.

This issue is SO COMMON amongst 4-5m vaulters (but also arguably in the 3-4m and 5-6m range) that I'm going to refer any other pleas for help like Brad's to this thread. I can't explain it any better than Superpipe has!

Regarding Brad's run, I do agree that it could be improved significantly, but I fail to see how that would improve the technical issues on takeoff, and elasticity to the C. If Brad cannot fix that technique when running slow, how the heck can he be expected to fix it when running 9+ meters per second?

Seems to be rowing as well.

Yeh, but that's not the root cause. That's the OUTCOME of the root cause identified by Superpipe. Blocking the shoulders has prevented the downswing from being as powerful as it could be, so Brad has no choice but to "catch up to the pole" by rowing. All tuck-shooters have this same flaw - to varying degrees of imperfection.

If you are a vaulter in the 4-5m range and you're wondering how to shoot straight up without flagging out (and you want to clear higher bars), wonder no longer. The root cause is most likely this!

Kirk Bryde

[PVDaddy]

Kirk our post begin the same way? First I begin my post by quoting Superpipes statement and respond with "Well said". You begin your post with THE SAME quote and say "Spot on"? We both agree With Superpipe that Brad has the same problem. the tying up of the shoulder joints!

You quote me: PVDaddy wrote:

Seems to be rowing as well

Then say:

Yeh, but that's not the root cause. That's the OUTCOME of the root cause identified by Superpipe. Blocking the shoulders has prevented the downswing from being as powerful as it could be, so Brad has no choice but to "catch up to the pole" by rowing. All tuck-shooters have this same flaw - to varying degrees of imperfection.

I must respectfully disagree with you on this. Brad is a tuck and shoot vaulter. He begins rowing IMMEDIATELY after plant, with his primary emphasis on rowing into the tuck and shoot and this ties his shoulder joints up. This IS the "root cause" of his shoulder joints tying up.

I have studied all 3 of his vaults and he has another crucial fundamental problem that has not been identified. He has no consistency in his 6 step pole drop and planting motion. All three run-ups were different. His Hands do not match his feet correctly or consistently. The three things that he does do well is stand erect at plant and gets his top hand and bottom hand over his head on his plant step. He needs to perfect his 6 step pole drop and planting motion.

I totally agree with you that he must instead emphasize chest penetration (He rows so fast that his top hand does not even move back over his head at all!) and get his top hand and trail leg back. He should elevate his trail leg more. I also like how you clarified that the pushing action (Mostly from the bottom hand) is in an upward direction. This should begin from over his head and continue
to the L-position. If he does that, along with an emphasis of the trail leg whip (Don't forget to extend the heal toward the pit while passing active-I) all the way to the top of the pole, his body will rotate like mad around the top hand.

[KirkB]

Kirk our post begin the same way? First I begin my post by quoting Superpipes statement and respond with "Well said". You begin your post with THE SAME quote and say "Spot on"? We both agree With Superpipe that Brad has the same problem. the tying up of the shoulder joints!

Yup. You may find it hard to believe, but we do both agree with Superpipe!

Seems to be rowing as well

Yeh, but that's not the root cause. That's the OUTCOME of the root cause identified by Superpipe. Blocking the shoulders has prevented the downswing from being as powerful as it could be, so Brad has no choice but to "catch up to the pole" by rowing. All tuck-shooters have this same flaw - to varying degrees of imperfection.

Yup. That's what I said.

I must respectfully disagree with you on this. Brad is a tuck and shoot vaulter. He begins rowing IMMEDIATELY after plant, with his primary emphasis on rowing into the tuck and shoot and this ties his shoulder joints up. This IS the "root cause" of his shoulder joints tying up.

You can say that the chicken came first, but I assert that the egg came first. I've underlined your incorrect statement. You ASSUME that his rowing action is what "ties up" his "shoulder joints". I assert that the tightening of his shoulders happens BEFORE he begins rowing.

Slight correction: You must mean "the muscles around the shoulder area", since the shoulder joints (bones and ligaments) are inert. Muscles tie up - bones and ligaments don't. But that's just a slight aside, just to get you thinking a little deeper about all this.

More to the point, Superpipe's analysis and advice - which I agree with 100% and apparently you do too - is to "press hard, but relax the shoulders at the same time". To do this as Superpipe prescribed, you MUST do it BEFORE any rowing action! Conversely, if you attempted to do this AFTER you began a rowing action, then IT WOULD NOT WORK!

Thus, the egg came first! The lack of pressing hard whilst relaxing the shoulders is the root cause. I hope you followed that logic.

You may think I'm quibbling, but I actually think that you're quibbling. It's VITAL that vaulters understand the TRUE ROOT CAUSE, and your quibbling is only muddying the waters - it is incorrect, and is the wrong advice to young vaulters.

Please repent.

Kirk Bryde

[PVDaddy]

Kirk:

Yup. You may find it hard to believe, but we do both agree with Superpipe!

No what I find is your copying my post almost verbatim. As far as Nominating who gave the correct advice (There were many different advices given) no one made you the official, thats for sure.

Kirk:

Brad has no choice but to "catch up to the pole" by rowing.

Your wrong, Brad rows because thats how he vaults. All tuck and shoot vaulters row

To do this as Superpipe prescribed, you MUST do it BEFORE any rowing action! Conversely, if you attempted to do this AFTER you began a rowing action, then IT WOULD NOT WORK!

I would never advocate rowing and that's what your doing and I think its a bad thing to encourage to any young vaulter

You may think I'm quibbling, but I actually think that you're quibbling. It's VITAL that vaulters understand the TRUE ROOT CAUSE, and your quibbling is only muddying the waters - it is incorrect, and is the wrong advice to young vaulters.

All I ever said was that he rows! As a secondary comment. What was the bad advice I gave? Not to row?

I agree with Superpipe, if Brad were to focus on on continuing to push up during his take off his shoulder girdles would be loose and elastic. My point is that Brad has rowing immediately on his mind as he is going into take off and that is why his shoulder girdles are tight to begin with. Your Chicken and egg theory is incorrect. Now you repent

[KirkB]

To do this as Superpipe prescribed, you MUST do it BEFORE any rowing action! Conversely, if you attempted to do this AFTER you began a rowing action, then IT WOULD NOT WORK!

I would never advocate rowing and that's what your doing and I think its a bad thing to encourage to any young vaulter

Yikes! I am in no way encouraging anyone to row! I'm not going to re-explain what I said or what I meant. I meant exactly what I said. Reread it, and stop trying to twist this. You KNOW that I would never advise a vaulter to row, and that rowing is NOT part of the Petrov Model, which I fully endorse.

Do I have to say "If a vaulter were to row (but I don't advise it), then in that scenario ..." in front of every sentence I mention the word "row"? Now THAT would be confusing! Please try to understand the context of what you're reading, before you jump to illogical assumptions or conclusions.

... It's VITAL that vaulters understand the TRUE ROOT CAUSE, and your quibbling is only muddying the waters - it is incorrect, and is the wrong advice to young vaulters.

All I ever said was that he rows! As a secondary comment. What was the bad advice I gave? Not to row?

You have incorrectly identified the root cause, which is just confusing the matter. You seem to be working on the premise of "If you can't convince them, then confuse them"!

It's VERY important that vaulters understand the ROOT CAUSE of their technical flaws. I guess you just don't "get" this principle.

I agree with Superpipe, if Brad were to focus on on continuing to push up during his take off his shoulder girdles would be loose and elastic.

No, PUSHING UP does NOT loosen his shoulders. These are 2 distinct actions, and both are important. A vaulter could still push up but keep the shoulders stiff. This is a no-no, and it's important not to confuse the 2. However, a vaulter could THINK he's pushing up to the extreme, but he could still have tight shoulder muscles (I'm not going to explain this any further, so don't ask). It's not as easy as you think to push up and keep the shoulders loose. I suppose you will have to try this yourself, and FEEL it to appreciate the distinction - it's impossible to understand this from a purely theoretical viewpoint.

... My point is that Brad has rowing immediately on his mind as he is going into take off ...

Hmm ... so now you think you understand Brad's INTENT? Have you spoken to him about this? If not, how do you know his intent?

I would even say that even if this IS Brad's intent, you're missing the point. The point is not to tell Brad what he's doing WRONG (dwelling on the negative). The point is to advise him what the root cause is (despite whether he intended to row or not), so that he can begin to reconstruct his technique with a knowledge of all the CORRECT things to think about (emphasizing the positive). This concept spans sports, so as a wrestling coach, you should understand this concept.

... and that is why his shoulder girdles are tight to begin with.

Yikes! This is a very convoluted conclusion. Please stop confusing everyone. Your conclusion is based on incorrect assumptions and illogical reasoning.

Kirk Bryde

[PV2020]

This topic should be put to a rest now... It was started a year ago, the vaulter has since graduated high school and in college with a very good college coach. I highly doubt your advice is being read.

[altius]

The voice of reason at last.