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I am currently considering a rule change proposal for the vertical jumps and I would like feedback on the idea.

The proposal would eliminate breaking ties in the HJ and PV below 3rd place. In other words, if multiple athletes clear the same height in positions below 3rd place they would tie in the final standings rather than break the tie with number of misses at the highest height made or total number of misses. These criteria would only apply to competitors in the first three positions. What do you think?

What would be the advantage of this?

How would this work for meets that score up to 8 places? If everyone else ties for 4th where do the points go?

The HS and College meets that I have been involved in that score more than 3 places try to set the height progressions so that ties DON'T happen.

I would want to see ties broken in scoring positions. For big meets, the officials often do not break the ties for positions below that anyway.

What advantages do you see to not breaking the ties?

rainbowgirl28 wrote:What advantages do you see to not breaking the ties?

The real issue for me is whether or not a certain performance is inherently "better" than another. For me me I find no difference between clearing the fourth highest bar of the meet on your second versus your third attempt.

Here are the state meet results from 3yrs ago.
1st - 15'
2nd - 14'6
3rd - 14'6
4th - 13'6
5th - 13'6
6th - 13'6
7th - 13'6
8th - 13'6
9th - 13'6

To me I see:
1st - 15'
2nd - 14'6
3rd - 14'6
6 way tie for
4th - 13'6

Barto wrote:I am currently considering a rule change proposal for the vertical jumps and I would like feedback on the idea.

The proposal would eliminate breaking ties in the HJ and PV below 3rd place. In other words, if multiple athletes clear the same height in positions below 3rd place they would tie in the final standings rather than break the tie with number of misses at the highest height made or total number of misses. These criteria would only apply to competitors in the first three positions. What do you think?

sorry for the off topic question but what is the proposal for? Who would it affect?

Barto wrote:

rainbowgirl28 wrote:What advantages do you see to not breaking the ties?

The real issue for me is whether or not a certain performance is inherently "better" than another. For me me I find no difference between clearing the fourth highest bar of the meet on your second versus your third attempt.

Here are the state meet results from 3yrs ago.
1st - 15'
2nd - 14'6
3rd - 14'6
4th - 13'6
5th - 13'6
6th - 13'6
7th - 13'6
8th - 13'6
9th - 13'6

To me I see:
1st - 15'
2nd - 14'6
3rd - 14'6
6 way tie for
4th - 13'6

yeah but then think of it this way, someone barely clears say 13', then their first two 13'6" jumps are failures, but their last one luck is on their side and they make it, should they really get the same credit as the guy who cleared 13'6" first try, got put on a bigger pole for 14', and jusr couldn't make it work?

That kind of ambiguity is not something I think we really want to get into...

I like the rule change proposal: it gives a little bit of a cushion to the less experienced vaulters to work with/score team points with.

But yeah, who would it affect?

powerplant42 wrote:That kind of ambiguity is not something I think we really want to get into...

I like the rule change proposal: it gives a little bit of a cushion to the less experienced vaulters to work with/score team points with.

But yeah, who would it affect?

yeah i know, i just dont like the idea, cause say for me i am right in the middle to top area of ability around here (if that makes sence), and so i dont want to have lucky jumps be just as good as mine. but if it never affects me, then what should i care?

Thats.What.She.Said wrote:should they really get the same credit as the guy who cleared 13'6" first try, got put on a bigger pole for 14', and jusr couldn't make it work?

My answer is based upon the level of competition. If you are talking about the first three places in the meet, then the first attempt make is better. If you are talking about a meet where 4 athletes jumped 1 foot higher anyway, then it doesn't matter.

Barto wrote:

Thats.What.She.Said wrote:should they really get the same credit as the guy who cleared 13'6" first try, got put on a bigger pole for 14', and jusr couldn't make it work?

My answer is based upon the level of competition. If you are talking about the first three places in the meet, then the first trial attempt is better. If you are talking about a meet where 4 athletes jumped 1 foot higher anyway, then it doesn't matter.

It would matter from a points standpoint.

ok i have the answer, i asked my friend who does cross country, not pole vault, so that there was no biased opinion, and he said that it is a bad idea. but anyways, i say no, because it would be like in say a cross country meet saying that the top 5 finishers from each team matter but then everyone else who finished within the same minute tied.

but could you answer the question about who it would affect?

ok i have the answer, i asked my friend who does cross country, not pole vault, so that there was no biased opinion, and he said that it is a bad idea.

No. If you want the 'answer', do a survey of this question (written by a neutral non-athlete as to prevent experimenter bias/self-fulfilling prophecy) of at least 10,000 non-vaulters that represent a 90+% accurate cross-section of all pole vaulters based on race, age, ethno-cultural background, and area of inhabitance. 1 person doesn't cut it. Besides, it matters much more what the VAULTERS think, doesn't it? That's like a doctor saying, "OK FDA board dudes, I have the answer, I asked my friend who does physics, not medecine, so that there was no biased opinion, and he said that this medecine is a bad idea."

Sorry twss, I had to call you out on that one... I recently finished my Psych AP statistics unit and just finished doing a study analysis about 5 minutes ago, so that part of your post really jumped out at me.

but anyways, i say no, because it would be like in say a cross country meet saying that the top 5 finishers from each team matter but then everyone else who finished within the same minute tied.

It is not. That would be equivalent to having everyone that jumped worse than 5th tie if they jump within a certain 1 foot range, i.e., 13'-14' tie, 14'-15' tie, etc. This is not so.

But yes Barto, WHO will this affect!?