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This topic could be in the wrong forum. It's about the BOX, but it's more about how to train yourself and your athletes to keep from landing in it. This is important to ALL levels of pole vaulters, and BOTH sexes.

The most important part of a vaulter's training is to STAY HEALTHY! We need to identify where we as athletes go wrong here, and where we can learn from others' mistakes.

Hearing about KYSEAMAN's accident sheds an entirely different light on what's important to discuss on PVP. If nothing else, if this thread prevents ONE vaulter from ONE injury, then it's worth our time to discuss it.

And it's not just Michael, it's all the other vaulters that get injured EVERY YEAR ... some more serious, some less. Sadly, SOME GET PARALYZED, AND SOME DIE!

I think the most dangerous part of pole vaulting is the danger of LANDING IN THE BOX. I know ... from bitter experience.

I had THREE season-ending injuries due to landing in the box (2 combined to end one season - I actually only lost 2 college seasons). And I was lucky at that.

The problem is that damn box! No matter how much you padding you put AROUND it, the box itself is still a lethal weapon.

So let's discuss this ...

1. Should Skydex soft boxes be made mandatory? Who has used them, and do they work? How common are they? Were they used at the Reno Summit? Or are they just another band-aid? Too expensive? How can you put a price tag on even a single season-ending injury?

2. Does the rule requiring 2-4" of padding between the box and the pit help? Or is it also just another band-aid? False security?

In HS, if I stalled out at heights of 13-14 feet, I could still land on the runway or beside the box without [much] injury. But when you get upwards of 15-16 feet, it's different. Your ankles can't absorb the shock of that hard of a landing! Really, I think even 13-14 feet was probably stressing the limits of the ankles. And this assumes that you're falling upright enough to even land on your feet. This is not always true.

What to do?

3. One obvious solution - mentioned many times on PVP - is to lower your grip if you're stalling out. This answer deserves more than just lip service. LOWER YOUR GRIP, learn to vault PROPERLY, then raise it. Not before!

4. Another solution - oh, so obvious, why didn't I think of this at the time? - is if you're going to bail, HANG ONTO THE POLE!!! Sounds simple, eh? Not so simple when you don't expect to bail, when your mind is focussed on clearing the bar! How STUPID of me! Think about it. What's the worst that can happen if you hang on? You'll sail out of the pit. But hanging on buys you time - to catch your balance and assess your predicament - and THEN let go before you sail completely out. This is worth repeating ... if something goes wrong, HANG ONTO THE POLE!!! It's your LIFELINE!

5. Make it a practice to set your standards ALL THE WAY BACK! Or ALMOST all the way back. If you find that you're setting them too close to the box, then something's wrong. Why aren't you getting some depth in your jump? If you can't swing/extend and shoot STRAIGHT UP without landing in the coach's box (preferably the middle or back half of it) then question your technique or your grip.

Personally, once I made the decision to land well back, I gained the confidence that I WOULDN'T stall out - at all. And I didn't! It can be a scary feeling hanging upside down on the pole. But this confidence gives you all the MORE confidence that you can invert/shoot without stalling. Yes, I meant what I just said. Having confidence gives you MORE confidence! Try it - you'll see! Once you land well into the coach's box, there's ONE LESS THING TO WORRY ABOUT. i.e. No more worries about stalling out!

In this thread, please share your own experiences, and provide your own ideas on how you can avoid injuries from landing in the box. What has changed over the years? Not much! Other than bigger pits and better safety training for coaches and athletes over the years, it strikes me that the inherent danger is still there - IT'S THE BOX! Treat it with respect.

Kirk

This may be a stupid answer, because its obvious, but have a "spotter" there to catch just in case. If us girls are falling, my coach or one of the guys could catch us and if its a guy falling, my coach can push them onto the mat [depending on how they fall.] Also, this one really might be stupid because this is theoretical, but if you're holding onto the pole, and the mat requirements for high school are "Pole Vault Pit Minimum size:19'8"W(back), 16'5"W(front)x 20'2"L x 26"H. Front units must extend 45" forward from base units and a common top pad shall cover entire pit." and for college "19'8"W x 21'5"L x 32"H with 16'5" padding behind plant box. Front portion of pit must be same width as back plus front sections must extend 5' toward runway from base sections. Common cover must cover the entire pit." [http://www.everythingtrackandfield.com/catalog/matriarch/OnePiecePage.asp_Q_PageID_E_112_A_PageName_E_polevaultrules], couldn't the vaulter, if about to fall back onto the track, yell for someone to push the pole forwards, towards the mat, since I'm assuming no one holds high enough to land off the mat? {it is 16'5"...if they're holding on and they're falling back, there's not a lot of momentum...and they probably won't be upside down at that point] That might be a stupid answer, I'm not sure, but maybe...???

Those of us here that have been lucky enough to be along the sport for a long time remember the SURGE of safety questions asked in 2002 after the death of Kevin Dare (http://www.kevindare.com/) and the 2 others that passed that year. There have been all sorts of supposed answers.

A quote that comes to mind is from National Safety Chairman Jan Johnson who said, "I dont ever want to see the day when we make it okay to land in the box". Now obviously in emergency situations, a soft box or other solution is good. But the goal needs to be to get vaulters to land in the coaches box EVERY JUMP. Because unfortunately it only takes one. And its not just beginners. Kevin was a very good up and coming vaulter (pr 16'9 i believe).

Coaches need to put the emphasis on proper and safe technique from the beginning. This includes, but is not limited too
1. Inspecting all equipment and facilities, each day, each jump session
2. Teaching kids proper take off/ plant techniques to keep them in the middle of the pit
3. Not pushing kids to longer runs or higher grips or bigger poles before they are consistently ready for them
4. Learning bail out skills (steering left, steering right, hanging onto the pole in panic situations)

quick random story. I had a scary incident in 2003 at the Big East Indoor Championships. The officials were not allowing anywhere near the runway/pit before the runway opened. not sure why. there was a lot of debate going back and forth between coaches and officials about thing they were doing. Anyway, i was all warmed up and ready to go when the finally opened the runway, i jumped on first. came down and took my first jump from long run (i got into this habit indoors). Came down from 8 lefts, took off, landed dead center of the pit and hear this terrible crashing sound. The officials had put a pair of metal folding chairs onto the pit to signficy it was closed. Of course from the back of the runway this cant be seen. Luckily I landed between them, but it just goes to show that caution is always needed.


I do have to say that the Gill softbox is a great emergency back off. I have jumped on them 4 times and never really noticed, 3 of those times i jumped over 18 feet, so it obvioiusly has no affect on performance. In fact his past year Jacob Pauli got his only 19 ft jump of the year on a gill softbox.

Anyway thats my .02

(and i bet you guys thought i was gonna talk about helmets didn't you)

I moved it to the coaches forum, it's more of a technique discussion than an equipment discussion.

KirkB wrote:1. Should Skydex soft boxes be made mandatory? Who has used them, and do they work? How common are they? Were they used at the Reno Summit? Or are they just another band-aid? Too expensive? How can you put a price tag on even a single season-ending injury?

No. They still can't prevent all box injuries. They are not common at all. They were not used at the Summit. Yes, they are too expensive. Making them mandatory would result in the pole vault being completely dropped at the high school level. They're not just expensive to buy, they are very invasive to install. You need heavy equipment to tear out the old box and put in the new one.

2. Does the rule requiring 2-4" of padding between the box and the pit help? Or is it also just another band-aid? False security?

Sure, it's good to have because most schools have padding laying around (old wrestling mats, basketball wall protectors, etc), or can buy some relatively inexpensively. Very easy to install

3. One obvious solution - mentioned many times on PVP - is to lower your grip if you're stalling out. This answer deserves more than just lip service. LOWER YOUR GRIP, learn to vault PROPERLY, then raise it. Not before!

4. Another solution - oh, so obvious, why didn't I think of this at the time? - is if you're going to bail, HANG ONTO THE POLE!!! Sounds simple, eh? Not so simple when you don't expect to bail, when your mind is focussed on clearing the bar! How STUPID of me! Think about it. What's the worst that can happen if you hang on? You'll sail out of the pit. But hanging on buys you time - to catch your balance and assess your predicament - and THEN let go before you sail completely out. This is worth repeating ... if something goes wrong, HANG ONTO THE POLE!!! It's your LIFELINE!

5. Make it a practice to set your standards ALL THE WAY BACK! Or ALMOST all the way back. If you find that you're setting them too close to the box, then something's wrong. Why aren't you getting some depth in your jump? If you can't swing/extend and shoot STRAIGHT UP without landing in the coach's box (preferably the middle or back half of it) then question your technique or your grip.

These are all things that should be mandatory coaches education items for all pole vault coaches. Progress is being made in this department, several states now require coaching certification. I think all pole vault coaches should have to undergo some sort of certification, be it online or a clinic.

birdi_gurlie wrote:This may be a stupid answer, because its obvious, but have a "spotter" there to catch just in case. If us girls are falling, my coach or one of the guys could catch us and if its a guy falling, my coach can push them onto the mat [depending on how they fall.] Also, this one really might be stupid because this is theoretical, but if you're holding onto the pole, and the mat requirements for high school are "Pole Vault Pit Minimum size:19'8"W(back), 16'5"W(front)x 20'2"L x 26"H. Front units must extend 45" forward from base units and a common top pad shall cover entire pit." and for college "19'8"W x 21'5"L x 32"H with 16'5" padding behind plant box. Front portion of pit must be same width as back plus front sections must extend 5' toward runway from base sections. Common cover must cover the entire pit." [http://www.everythingtrackandfield.com/catalog/matriarch/OnePiecePage.asp_Q_PageID_E_112_A_PageName_E_polevaultrules], couldn't the vaulter, if about to fall back onto the track, yell for someone to push the pole forwards, towards the mat, since I'm assuming no one holds high enough to land off the mat? {it is 16'5"...if they're holding on and they're falling back, there's not a lot of momentum...and they probably won't be upside down at that point] That might be a stupid answer, I'm not sure, but maybe...???

If it is happening in slow enough motion for a coach to do something, it's usually slow enough motion that the vaulter can bail out safely.

Many coaches think they would catch a vaulter who was going to fall on the runway, but the truth is few have the skills to do that. It's way harder than spotting in gymnastics and way more dangerous.

Unfortunately, most coaches I have seen who are big into "spotting" really just end up tapping. It seems to make them more likely to overgrip an athlete, because they have this false sense of security that they can save them if something goes wrong.

No amount of padding, will make the box a safe place to land. Simply too many corners and angles, that'll hurt you, regardless of how you land.

Kirk (again) hit the head of the nail. Penetration. Always train with the standards all the way back. Never allow an athlete to take it closer than 60 (unless extremely experienced or jumping lower than 240cm or so). Never get cocky in pole selection. Avoid taps (might give an atlete false confidence).

Never fool around........

6. Choose your poles carefully - don't move up a pole (especially ones you've never tried before) unless you're landing too far into the pit (blowing thru) or when there's an unusually good tail wind that calls for a bigger pole, and you KNOW that you'll blow thru if you don't pre-empt it. Don't go crazy and try to rationalize that you need to go up a pole in order to make the next bar or "win the meet". There's so many other things you can do (run faster, jump harder, swing better) to clear the next bar with the pole you're already on.

Kirk

the truth is we have enough technology to make pole vault a lot safter. the only problme is that technology and updates to pits cost money. There is no telling how many schools had to cut pole vaulting after they required the matts to be bigger. Yes it needed to be done, but it still hurt a lot of programs. One coach I know applied for a pattent for a device that sits under the mat behind the box that after you plant it sticks a matt over the box incase you fall back. Yes this is a very simple design but because its for track and only people buying it would be schools, it would probably cost a couple thousand bucks to put on all pits. My high school was too cheap to buy us a box collar and matts around the standards.

So all you really can do without getting pole vault is offer saftey classes and teach kids to be smart when vaulting. I knew my pit sucked, so I just used small poles durring practice and home meets and always used a bigger pole at places that had nice safety gear.

Follow the safety rules set up for high school vaulters. Only use a pole your weight or over. The only way to break a pole if it is over your weight is to blow thru it. If you do this you land on the pits on your back. If you use a pole under your weight you can break it by hanging on it and you will drop on your head into the box.

Livininthepast wrote:Follow the safety rules set up for high school vaulters. Only use a pole your weight or over. The only way to break a pole if it is over your weight is to blow thru it. If you do this you land on the pits on your back. If you use a pole under your weight you can break it by hanging on it and you will drop on your head into the box.

Or if the pole is damaged...

Pole breaks rarely cause serious injury, the worst are usually broken bones in the hand/wrist, which suck but are not catastrophic.

The intent of the weight rating rule was to lower grips. It's debatable if it has achieved that goal. I do think the weight rating rule should be followed for a variety of reasons, but breaking a pole isn't one of them. Preaching that as a reason for following the rule makes it too easy for rookie coaches/vaulters to think they _can't_ break a pole over their body weight.

Go to Target. Spend $17 for a vinyl bean bag "chair". Give to an official who stands near the box. In case of a stall, they throw it into the box.