PP42's Senior Year Training Blog

[Capt Caveman]

The "whip-hinge" drill looks like an weak high school vaulter trying to sit over the bar. If what is being shown in that video is even remotely good, I do not see any benefit in it at all other than some abdominal strenth. It does not look like a vault drill that would imporve much of anything else.

Here is what I mean
- The hips stay below the sholders so if the goal of a swing is to get upside down then the hips must continue to move. If at any point in the swing the point of rotation is the hips then the hips must slow/stop swinging. This slowing/stopping will work against your ability to get completely to vertical. The majority of the rotation in the swing must happen at the shoulders. Think about where you want to end up and work backwards. Even in a "tuck and shoot" style jump the shoulders remain the primary point of rotation and the hips continue to move forward and up.

Or am I missing something in a drill where the hips stay below the shoulders? I just dont see how you can get completely upside down if you intentionally break at the hips. It seems the only direction you could go folded in half at the hips with your butt below your sholders is out not up.

[kcvault]

Or am I missing something in a drill where the hips stay below the shoulders? I just dont see how you can get completely upside down if you intentionally break at the hips. It seems the only direction you could go folded in half at the hips with your butt below your shoulders is out not up.

Things move faster when they have a pivot point, To swing a long fast trail leg at the bottom of a jump accelerates the pole also by swinging it fast it will eventually cause you hips to rise, at the point your hips begin to rise kick up driving your hips upward, almost identical to a kick you would do if you were doing a free hip circle on a high bar (the point where you are kicking for a hand stand) PP's main problem with his whip hinge is how passive they are that's why his hips don't begin to rise, also he doesn't need to kick his leg all the way to the bar just a little past an L seat because after that it is time for your hips to rise. The whip hinge should be nothing more then the down swing in a bubka. You can use it as a lead up drill for a bubka, or a strengthening exercise for the elastic stretch motion. The down swing loads and accelerates the pole to say it's not important is ridiculous.

---Kasey

[KYLE ELLIS]

The "whip-hinge" drill looks like an weak high school vaulter trying to sit over the bar. If what is being shown in that video is even remotely good, I do not see any benefit in it at all other than some abdominal strenth. It does not look like a vault drill that would imporve much of anything else.

Here is what I mean
- The hips stay below the sholders so if the goal of a swing is to get upside down then the hips must continue to move. If at any point in the swing the point of rotation is the hips then the hips must slow/stop swinging. This slowing/stopping will work against your ability to get completely to vertical. The majority of the rotation in the swing must happen at the shoulders. Think about where you want to end up and work backwards. Even in a "tuck and shoot" style jump the shoulders remain the primary point of rotation and the hips continue to move forward and up.

Or am I missing something in a drill where the hips stay below the shoulders? I just dont see how you can get completely upside down if you intentionally break at the hips. It seems the only direction you could go folded in half at the hips with your butt below your sholders is out not up.

I completely agree with everything you said caveman... I think the point that KC doesn't get is due to the way he jumps, KC gets onto his shoulders very fast (infact too fast)... If a drive vaulter drives into and swings their leg keeping the hips low they go no where. KC on most of his jumps is looking back at th runway a split second after takeoff, so he will never have this problem (as much) because he is dropping his shoulders simotanisly with his leg swing (so he infact ends up swinging his entire body)...

But if your hips don't continue to rise the only way to get upside down is too tuck and shoot

[kcvault]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2QDXJm0nK4

Look at this video pause it several times at 6 seconds the hips are low until he is in an L seat (or he finishes his down swing) as he finishes this down swing and his hips begin to rise as a result he pushes his hips up as he kicks up. But his downswing looks exactly like the whip hinge drill I am describing. I would never use my jumps as a technical model I have very poor technique which I am working very hard to fix. But I think it would be a relatively new concept to a lot of very well respected coaches to say it's not important to swing your trail leg. That is the last thing I'll say since we have already had this argument, but I will say Power plant needs to be more aggressive with his drills, no matter what other drills you do the bubka is probably the most important one focus on perfecting it and you will get better.

[KYLE ELLIS]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2QDXJm0nK4

Look at this video pause it several times at 6 seconds the hips are low until he is in an L seat (or he finishes his down swing) as he finishes this down swing and his hips begin to rise as a result he pushes his hips up as he kicks up. But his downswing looks exactly like the whip hinge drill I am describing. I would never use my jumps as a technical model I have very poor technique which I am working very hard to fix. But I think it would be a relatively new concept to a lot of very well respected coaches to say it's not important to swing your trail leg. That is the last thing I'll say since we have already had this argument, but I will say Power plant needs to be more aggressive with his drills, no matter what other drills you do the bubka is probably the most important one focus on perfecting it and you will get better.

It is impossible to not break at the hips, it simply wont happen. But that doesn't mean you should purposely try to work on it. I showed Gibillisco doing all of those drills purposely working on not breaking at the hips. Do a bubka and try to keep a straight body, it won't happen.
It may be a new concept to some coaches, but I garuntee it isn't to the greatest coach.
By the time you realize that it is time to swing your trail leg will have already swung your leg directly under your head, when are you going to swing your leg????? If you swing your foot above your head you will have to wait for your hips too catch up, creating a huge passive phase and probably forcing a tuck. Your leg is going to beat your hips to the vertical plane every time, why would you give it a head start???

I used to be a tuck and shooter until I worked with Dave Butler who I think is the best coach in America, now I can swing straight to the top without tucking, doesnt happen everythime because it is still a process, but it can be done; even though Kirk doubted me.

[kcvault]

Ok so I lied about that being the last thing I was going to say. I did not say swing the foot over your head I said swing it to an L and then push your hips up over your head if you did this right the hips well be rising in perfect timing with your kick. The reason I emphasize this is I have been at a lot of camps where I have watched beginners learn to pole vault. Every single one at first tries to swing there hips but not there trail leg. Results in the pole not rolling and the feet dropping out. You can push your hips up all you want if the feet are not ahead of them until you are fully inverted your feet drop causing your hips to drop. I am going to record some of the kids the next camp I go to in a couple months so I can point out when the hips come forward to soon the pole stops rolling. Everyone can try and swing there hips off the ground but with out a trail leg the inversion well never happen. It's about timing and doing things in sequence, not skipping steps by swinging your hips off the ground, and forgetting the importance of the trail leg.

[KYLE ELLIS]

Ok so I lied about that being the last thing I was going to say. I did not say swing the foot over your head I said swing it to an L and then push your hips up over your head if you did this right the hips well be rising in perfect timing with your kick. The reason I emphasize this is I have been at a lot of camps where I have watched beginners learn to pole vault. Every single one at first tries to swing there hips but not there trail leg. Results in the pole not rolling and the feet dropping out. You can push your hips up all you want if the feet are not ahead of them until you are fully inverted your feet drop causing your hips to drop. I am going to record some of the kids the next camp I go to in a couple months so I can point out when the hips come forward to soon the pole stops rolling. Everyone can try and swing there hips off the ground but with out a trail leg the inversion well never happen. It's about timing and doing things in sequence, not skipping steps by swinging your hips off the ground, and forgetting the importance of the trail leg.

now I can swing straight to the top without tucking

Very impressive though notice you said you swing a trail leg, not that you swing your hips, this leads me to believe a trail leg must have been important in your vault.

I did???

[kcvault]

Sorry I revised my last post should have read that more carefully.

[KirkB]

I used to be a tuck and shooter until I worked with Dave Butler who I think is the best coach in America, now I can swing straight to the top without tucking, doesnt happen everythime because it is still a process, but it can be done; even though Kirk doubted me.

KE, can you clarify this? Doubting what? Again, I don't recall doubting anything ... was I doubting that a tuck/shooter can convert to a Petrover? Is there a particular post when we talked about this, or was it in a PM?

I'm not trying to revive old arguments ... I'm just trying to remember them!

Swing straight to the top without tucking? Of course! But swing straight to the top without tucking OR piking? Nope! Everyone ALWAYS breaks at the hips ... even Bubka.

On perhaps an entirely different topic, this whole idea of the hinge-whip drill allegedly being "not a good drill" ... and being misunderstood or being done incorrectly ... I'm a little disappointed ... since I'm the INVENTOR of the drill ... 40 years ago!

The PROPER use of this drill can STILL make the difference of well over a foot to your PR ... in a single season (no, I can't quantify this assertion, other than my own personal experience, where I increased my PR by 22 inches in my Jr. year ... not ALL attributed to this drill, but this was definitely one of the key drills that I "perfected" in that year).

I thought I explained this drill fairly well over a series of threads in the past couple years. However, to once again clarify how to do it PROPERLY, I'm going to start a new thread in the Training forum ... coming soon.

Kirk

[Capt Caveman]

pp42

Stop doing that drill in that manner - it is 40 years old and is in need of some updateing. Fiberglass poles were in there infancy when it was created and even in 1969 you had to get your hips up in order to go up. Or follow Kirk's new thread (as i will since I still cant picture how it works) to see how to do it correctly.
Swing up not down - everything in the vault should move forward and up. (new question, what is a "down swing"?)
Keep your hips moving during your swing (even if you are a tuck and shoot vaulter) and maximize the rotation in the shoulders. Think about it, how can you hang under your hands in a vertical position if your hips stay below your shoulders.

[powerplant42]

I know this sounds rather implausible, but I was able to fix the hips in one attempt of the drill. I'll have more video up today (and of me in the sand).

Hopefully if I do it more properly you will see the benefits.

[KirkB]

pp42

Stop doing that drill in that manner - it is 40 years old and is in need of some updateing. Fiberglass poles were in there infancy when it was created and even in 1969 you had to get your hips up in order to go up. Or follow Kirk's new thread (as i will since I still cant picture how it works) to see how to do it correctly.
Swing up not down - everything in the vault should move forward and up. (new question, what is a "down swing"?)
Keep your hips moving during your swing (even if you are a tuck and shoot vaulter) and maximize the rotation in the shoulders. Think about it, how can you hang under your hands in a vertical position if your hips stay below your shoulders.

OK, I'll start my new thread now. Look for "The Stretch Whip Drills" thread on the Training forum.

Kirk