The TAP at the top of the swing

[PVDaddy]

P.S. I understand there are a lot of typos in the original response to Eric (I come from a very very long line of decorated Marines) Semper Fi! Uh Rah! I am in a hurry, have to go help some eager kids, who have no coach, or any place else to practice.

[KirkB]

I have not taken the time to dissect in detail your 4-point list of what Bubka did at the top of his vault in detail. I can't be bothered to read and take anything you say seriously, even when you might have something serious to say. It's too time consuming for me to separate the wheat from the chaff. However, I did notice that you didn't use the word TAP once. You are now describing an EXTENSION - not a TAP. We may be making progress here ...

Cut out the paragraphs where your only purpose was to insult us, and cut out all the material ALREADY WELL-KNOWN IN THE PV COMMUNITY (your 4 points, apparently), and what's left?

What is your true contribution to this Advanced Technique forum? What is your added value to improving our common understanding of the best PV technique - the technique that we should all be striving for in our coaching and our vaulting?

I just don't see anything positive here. It's all either NEGATIVE, or it's stuff we already know, or it's WRONG and MISLEADING. There is no added value!

Can you at least admit that there is no TAP at the top of the vault? Or will you still continue to be stubborn about this point? I've asked you this question before, so I will take your continued silence either as you still stubbornly asserting that there's a tap at the top, or that you know there's not, but your super-inflated ego will not allow you to publicly admit it. Which is it?

Even if you refuse to admit your mistake and move on, I'm moving on. It seems so pointless to keep bantering about the same old same old.

I'm out!

Kirk

[PVstudent]

I thought I would share this with PVP readers once again! As this thread has gone on it has become even more apparent than PVdaddy is beyond help.

The comments are by a Nobel Prize Winner no less!

“You will from time to time meet a patient who shares a disturbing tale of multiple mistakes in his previous treatment. He has seen several clinicians, and all failed him. This patient can lucidly describe how his therapists misunderstood him, but he has quickly perceived that you are different. You share the same feeling, are convinced you understand him, and will be able to help.”

At this point my teacher raised his voice as he said “Do not even think of taking on this patient! Throw him out of the office! He is most likely a psychopath and you will not be able to help him.”

Quote from:
Daniel Kahneman (2011) Thinking Fast and Slow. (pages; 27 – 28) Penguin Books.
ISBN: 9780141033570

Wise words I think.

[PVDaddy]

Kirk, Believe it or not I spend and have spent a lot of time (I did nothing but read for a full month before I made my first comment) reading what others have to say or have said and pay attention, but, It is impossible for me to know everything that others already know. That is an impossible task for me, you or anybody else! There is great deal of what others post, that I already know, but you will never here me make the comment "that has already been said!". I am not wired that way. Maybe somebody will say something a certain way that will finally bring it home to them?

Believe it or not, I am also very open to change and will be the first one to admit a mistake I have made as soon as I recognize it. Especially if treated like a human being. I just want to grow in my understanding of the vault and promote what I think are perhaps some overlooked areas so other can as well. I like many was very frustrated with the lack of progress for the past 20 years. I believe that was largely because so many very important technical issues were not brought to light. I think this will change and change rapidly as the proper dissemination of good information is put out there and absorbed by the community. I think this is already occurring at a rapid rate and coaches and vaulters are collectively improving.

You are correct that I have been reconsidering my use of the word "Tap" when describing that action at the top of the swing. This is not because I do not feel a tapping action takes place there, but, because the use of the word evidently is not liked by the pole vault community. I did not know what the most popular word was for describing this integrated technical action was. Was it "Shoot", "Extend" "Pike" what? I will confess that I intentionally made use of the word "Tap" and carried it forward from gymnastics, because, I saw the need to promote this action as the fully integrated, highly technical action it is and hopefully change how it is viewed. It involves so much more than just the unbending of the spine. After all, the arms, abdomen, back, shoulders, head, legs, hips and pole all come into play here! That's a lot of things! They are all integrated into that main goal of literally shooting the vaulter off the end the stick and beside the top hand push ,are basically the last of many opportunities to add energy into what is collectively part of the swing and at a very important time!

But, something entered my mind last week. It was something that our all agreed hero "Petrov" had to say. He said "The vaulter should attempt to make himself an "Extension" of the pole." I like that thought. So perhaps "Extension" is what it is called and should be called? Therefore, from now on "Extension" or "Extend" it shall be!

[KirkB]

"Petrov" ... said "The vaulter should attempt to make himself an 'Extension' of the pole."

I like that thought.

So perhaps "Extension" is what it is called and should be called?

Therefore, from now on "Extension" or "Extend" it shall be!

Now we can close this thread!

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Kirk, a couple very simple questions? These are all items I have promoted in many instances more than anyone here and have largely been my focus while here. I have had a great deal to say about the following. I am a fan of all below.

How do you feel about the following? You can simply answer yes or no if you have no comment.

1)Does the extension of the bottom arm, after penetration, accelerate the swing?
2) Is there a Tap at the Bottom of the swing as Werner, Clymer and Myself claim?
3) Does a Pull through the shoulders, after you break in the hips, assist to raise the hips and the vaulter in the vertical direction?
4) Does a bottom arm push toward the pit after inversion increase fly-away height?
5) Does inverting beyond vertical decrease flag out and/or increase fly-awy height?
6) Does the extension at the top of the swing involve more then the unbending of the spine and the thrusting of the hips?
7) Does the extension at the top of the swing add significant energy to the vaulter pole system?
8)Does a Top hand push prior to fly-awy increase fly away height?

What New or inovative ideas have you brought here to PVP?

[KirkB]

PVDaddy, the trouble with you is there's no such thing as "a couple very simple questions". I have talked about most of these topics many times over the past several years, and I will not be repeating myself here. You have insulted me many times - even suggesting that my opinions were worthless - and now you're asking for my advice? Are you serious? (That's a rhetoric question - please don't answer it.) Sorry, you have burnt your bridges with me.

The fact that you have ATTEMPTED to discuss some of these topics on this Advanced Technique forum, and the fact that you have agreed with Clymer and Werner re a tap at the BOTTOM of the swing does not put you into their sphere of expertise on this topic - especially since you have no idea what a tap even is (or how to distinguish it from a normal swing).

I don't think Clymer and Werner want or need your help in clarifying their esteemed positions on this topic!

You lost all credibility re the tap at the BOTTOM of the swing when you tried to assert your mistaken opinion re the existence of a tap at the TOP of the swing.

Please refrain from confusing the readers of this forum by asserting your opinions about how gymnastic taps might be similar to pole vault "taps". You only muddy the waters - you do NOT bring clarity to any of these topics!

Your "simple" questions (or assertions, or ring-ass ideas) often turn into months upon months upon months of useless discussion. Discussions that inevitably turn into arguments. For example, this thread has gone on for far too long - five and a half months!

As far as I'm concerned, this thread is now closed, because we have now (FINALLY - five and a half months later!) convinced you that THERE IS NO TAP AT THE TOP OF THE SWING!

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

Kirk, You are the one who just made the blanket statement that I have brought nothing of value here to PVP (What a rude arrogant assertion on your part!) I on the other hand believe it is closed minded, not willing to consider new or innovative ideas, not capable of critical thinking, old school technique minded posters like yourself ,that have largely held the vault back for far 20 years. I made a list of my main points of promotion here and ask you to only to give a yes or no on each item for a reason (to show just how stuck in the mud you are). I understand that you are afraid to state your stance on all of these issues, because, you will be proven wrong on most, if not all, of these points in the future as they become a common understanding of what is considered good technique among the advanced pole vault community, just as you already have in many instances. You are correct I do not have a great admiration for your critical thinking skills and I do not think you have contributed much outside of the box that has moved the sport forward toward raising the bar. You certainly fail to recognize many opportunities to add energy to the vault. This shows just how much of a follower and not an innovator you are. You also fail to recognize good theory and only take hold of other peoples ideas, only if they have have what you consider are high credentials and place there stamp of approval. Come on Kirk show some courage! Take a stance on my above list with a thumbs up or down! I doubt you will. Your lack of response shows you agree fully with them all. Furthermore rather then make so much effort in putting me down, how about you take that energy and go help coach some kids?

You are also incorrect that I don't think the fully integrated action of the extension at the top of the swing is a form of a tap. I just feel that 'Extension" is the better, most excepted term for that action.

[KirkB]

Take a stance on my above list with a thumbs up or down!

As usual, you have completely missed the point of my last reply, and you are trying to put words in my mouth as to my motivation for refusing to debate any of these topics with you. Your interpretations of my reasons for not wishing to correspond with you are COMPLETELY off base, and you know it.

You are so, so wrong about so, so much that I don't even know where to begin to have a rational conversation with you.

The reason is that I do not wish to debate each of these topics for yet another five and a half months, so stop trying to bait me into yet another discussion or debate or argument. It's futile.

I have no interest in any of your theories, ideas, or interpretations of Advanced Technique. And no, I won't even give you a yes or no on each of your questions, because you will continue to have follow up questions. And assertions. And theories. And opinions. And misunderstandings. Ad infinitum.

I'M NOT INTERESTED! I don't know how I can say this any clearer. End of story.

You are also incorrect that I don't think the fully integrated action of the extension at the top of the swing is a form of a tap. I just feel that 'Extension" is the better, most excepted term for that action.

So now you're back to your incorrect assertion that there is a tap at the top of the vault? Yikes!

This is pointless. I'm out!

Kirk

[PVDaddy]

No Kirk, I am not interested in debating anything with you. Quit giving yourself so much credit. You do not impress me. However, You have consistently said my points are all invalid. So I listed most all of the major ones I have been promoting here on PVP and asked you to point the invalid ones out. You can't and you won't because you fear (Maybe you might even know? Not sure if you have that abillity to think critically for yourself?) they are ALL Valid!
So once again you are full of negative accusations with no proof or substance and the only thing you can do is try to paint me with a big brush. That is easy for you to say, but in every instance, impossible for you to demonstrate!
You are not just full of negativity (Out of jealousy) you are mostly just full of it! We all know what that "it" Is! Case closed!

[PVDaddy]

Kirk, I would appreciate it , if you would keep any more negative comments about me off my threads. Your only intent, like always is obvious, to bate a fight and to destroy once again a very important topic. I'm done with it ok?

[Decamouse]

"held the vault back for 20 years" -- is that the same thinking that has held numerous events back for a long time? High Jump! - Long Jump has one meet better than Mexico City -- maybe it is professional sports and how much that impacts the talent pool. This is supposed to be about exchange of ideas - not 2nd guessing and taking pot shots at other -- let the results speak for them self - good coaches have kids or professional that improve - and sometimes simply maintain a level -- also relating to who you are working with -- we will have our Conference Relay meet today with a high of 40 degrees - mentor that - called make a height please