Can you add energy after takeoff?

[master]

This link gets you the Linthorne paper.

- master

[Tim McMichael]

Couldnt be explained better Tim! But it is rather sad that after all of the information,knowledge and even wisdom, that has been put up on this site - this critical issue is still misunderstood. The myth that you cant add energy to the system after take off leads almost directly to young athletes being killed and injured.

I think the safety issue here is the most important. I have never missed the pit on a jump I finished in my entire life. The same is true for Joe, and we were jumping on poles that were huge by anyone’s standards. I seriously doubt anyone can show me a film of Bubka finishing a jump and landing anywhere near the box. This is a direct result of understanding how to add energy to the system.

Perhaps a good way to get at this dynamic is to think about stiff pole vaulting. I am not sure about this, but I don’t think there is any way a person jumping on an inflexible pole could finish a jump above their hands and land short of the pit. The connection between the pole rotating around its base and the vaulter rotating around their hands is too direct in a stiff pole vault. If the pole stops moving, the vaulter cannot continue to swing. Think about how small and shallow the pits were back then. They look like death traps to modern eyes, yet with vaulters regularly clearing heights above 14 feet, you did not have a catastrophic rash of injuries. What would happen if we placed a 12 X 12 pile of sawdust behind the box for a local high school meet today? The sad thing is that the same degree of safety that was a central feature of the stiff pole days is available to us in this era if only we follow the same principles. I don't understand how a person can miss a pit the size of even the minmum high school requirements.

I have a picture somewhere of me jumping 14’ on a sawdust pit. It looks insane, even to me, but at that moment it never occurred to me that this was a dangerous thing to do. I simply stayed within myself and landed feet first the way I had seen in old films. It is my firm belief that the pole vault is completely safe if done with even the most basic understanding of correct form, and that basic understanding must include adding energy to the system after takeoff.

Found the picture.
http://www.treemo.com/files/treemo.tmcm ... 366.or.jpg

[KirkB]

... I am not sure about this, but I don’t think there is any way a person jumping on an inflexible pole could finish a jump above their hands and land short of the pit. The connection between the pole rotating around its base and the vaulter rotating around their hands is too direct in a stiff pole vault. If the pole stops moving, the vaulter cannot continue to swing. Think about how small and shallow the pits were back then. They look like death traps to modern eyes, yet with vaulters regularly clearing heights above 14 feet, you did not have a catastrophic rash of injuries. ...

Tim, nice pic of 14-0 into sawdust! I just wish I had THAT MUCH sawdust at my HS!

And is that a mono runway? Nothin but dirt?

From personal experience, I can tell you that the reason stiff pole vaulters didn't stall out and land short is becuz they could tell almost EXACTLY how deep they'll land before they release the pole. There is a MUCH tighter sense of awareness of where you are in the air ... and on the pole ... when you're gripping lower and the pole doesn't bend. And becuz of this, you could sense IMMEDIATELY on takeoff whether or not you had enough momentum to make the pit.

Vaulters were VERY concious of their grip, and even an inch more grip made a huge difference ... so any increase in grip during a meet had to have a corresponding increase in speed/momentum at takeoff. Your "swing" from jump to jump during a meet rarely varied ... unlike flex pole vaulting ... so improving your technique from jump to jump was a rare option. Usually, you just built up more adrenalin ... or whatever else you needed to improve your takeoff speed.

You also had to be wary of your landing ... so feet-first was usually your intention. Some didn't land feet first, but those that did probably got more meets in per year than those that didn't.

Kirk

[Divalent]

I have a picture somewhere of me jumping 14’ on a sawdust pit. It looks insane, even to me, but at that moment it never occurred to me that this was a dangerous thing to do. I simply stayed within myself and landed feet first the way I had seen in old films. It is my firm belief that the pole vault is completely safe if done with even the most basic understanding of correct form, and that basic understanding must include adding energy to the system after takeoff.

Found the picture. http://www.treemo.com/files/treemo.tmcm ... 366.or.jpg

Fabulous photo! So many interesting elements in it: the dirt runway, the rag tag crowd at something like a county fair, the standards being held by two men (did they pivot them to help you out?), the saw dust pile. The whole setting is just *SO* interesting. Just a classic snapshot illustrating a moment of americana. Would love to hear about what this event was.

[rainbowgirl28]

Just a classic snapshot illustrating a moment of americana. Would love to hear about what this event was.

I think the picture is from Guatemala! Tim isn't _that_ old, I think by the time he was in his prime, sawdust pits were long gone in the USA.

[Divalent]

Just a classic snapshot illustrating a moment of americana. Would love to hear about what this event was.

I think the picture is from Guatemala! Tim isn't _that_ old, I think by the time he was in his prime, sawdust pits were long gone in the USA.

Wow, even cooler! (Still americana, just a little unusual). Sounds like an interesting story. I'm visualizing it as something like: backpackin' the wild jungles of central america, with your trusty 13'6" 165 strapped to your back, willing to thrill the natives with your daring do in return for some hospitality and a warm bed of the night (and protection from the local maurading revolutionaries).

[Tim McMichael]

Just a classic snapshot illustrating a moment of americana. Would love to hear about what this event was.

I think the picture is from Guatemala! Tim isn't _that_ old, I think by the time he was in his prime, sawdust pits were long gone in the USA.

Wow, even cooler! (Still americana, just a little unusual). Sounds like an interesting story. I'm visualizing it as something like: backpackin' the wild jungles of central america, with your trusty 13'6" 165 strapped to your back, willing to thrill the natives with your daring do in return for some hospitality and a warm bed of the night (and protection from the local maurading revolutionaries).

LOL, LOL, LOL!!!

Okay, Here’s the story. I went to Guatemala with my wife to do a free medical clinic. The trip was organized by our church, and Tami agreed to head up the medical team. It is not easy living with an actual saint. In 18 years I think I have been on the right side of an argument with her about twice. She takes care of terminally ill children for a living and has an actual halo that radiates a soft golden glow. I'm not kidding. In any place there is suffering, the atmosphere in the room changes when she walks through the door.

I tagged along on this trip mostly for moral support - like she needed it. But this was early in our marriage, and I hadn't really seen her in action yet. Two of our team members became critically ill during the trip, literally at deaths door. Sometime around midnight things took a turn for the worse, and it was up to Tami to try to save their lives. I had been in a few tight spots before, and I felt I needed to help her deal with this. Just before we left to try to find a pharmacy, I took her aside and held her by the shoulders, looked deeply in her eyes and said, “Sweetheart, you are going to have to make some tough decisions right now. I want you to make the best call you can, and follow through. Don’t hesitate and don’t doubt yourself.” She just looked at me like I was an idiot and said, “Get out of my way.”

Anyway, as for the picture, the free clinic got mobbed on the second day with people standing in line in the heat for hours. Tami insisted on bringing the most critical cases to the front of the line, and the result was that a riot was brewing. I had hauled a few poles along because, well, you never know. Tami got the idea that I could keep the people occupied while they were waiting, so I had a truck deliver a load of sawdust from a mill that was just down the road and rigged the box and standards and provided entertainment for the crowd outside the tent while they were waiting to get in. Someone took a picture and sent it to me after we got home.

See what I mean about the halo.
http://www.treemo.com/content/899038_8q ... 79w_or.jpg