The Real Questions of the 6.40 Model

[ADTF Academy]

Obviously if you aspire to reach 21' for men or 18' women you have to seriously think about training system you employ. If you think of the 3-year period you only have about 30 vault sessions when you really can introduce changes. 30 sessions is not that many as you can imagine, so every session should become like gold to you.

Let's bring up this 18' for women what would this even take. How many 135 to 145 pound men have ever vaulted 18'? How many vaulters have jumped 18' with a grip under 4.60? What grip for women corresponds to a 5.20 grip for men? What is the highest vault recorded on a 15' pole and what are his figures (height, weight, speed and strength)? Is there any women that can match it?


Can women grip 4.90's and rotate them safely into the pit? This is a whole different can of worms.

[rainbowgirl28]

Let's bring up this 18' for women what would this even take. How many 135 to 145 pound men have ever vaulted 18'? How many vaulters have jumped 18' with a grip under 4.60? What grip for women corresponds to a 5.20 grip for men? What is the highest vault recorded on a 15' pole and what are his figures (height, weight, speed and strength)? Is there any women that can match it?


Can women grip 4.90's and rotate them safely into the pit? This is a whole different can of worms.

Wish you could have come to Cologne, you would have enjoyed it quite a bit. Their biomechanists are amazing. I know Cees is working on getting the videos online.

Girls are less efficient than guys, beginning at the cellular level. Their muscles don't store energy as efficiently, and there are differences in the way their skeleton is put together. So if you had a guy and girl that were the same height and speed, if both were at a similar level of technical proficiency, the guy will jump higher.

18'/5.50 for women is not realistic, despite the fact that there are probably guys with speed and height comparable to the bigger girls who have done it.


I know this is America, and it's sacrilegious to say someone can't do something, but I don't think women can jump 18'. I think 17' is stretching the limits, but I'll grant that it may be within the realm of possibility.


I know there is another thread on the board about 18' on a 15' pole... I've seen someone _almost_ do it, and he did jump high 17's on a 15' pole. He wasn't particularly tall or fast, but does have a gymnastics background.

[PaulVaulter]

I think the ideas and information being thrown around in this thread are very useful and may lead somewhere. Certain variables may hold true, high speed take-off high grip etc.

BUT

I'm not sure how much relevance you can take from averages of freak data points.

Every 6m pole vaulter is a freak in some way or other. The average of many freaks will more often that not turn out to be Joe Bloggs.

The occurance of a 6m vaulter, their characteristics and physical attrirbutes to perform at such a level, they automatically become a sub-set of 1 (to throroughly mis-quote a top sprints coach talking about elite sprint performances i.e. sub 9.90)

Having said that, I still have my fingers crossed.

[dj]

Good morning,

It took 18 months for Tully to change to the correct (enough) speed and close to the correct penultimate/takeoff. The first 6 months was all about the “physical” that would be needed to do what we would ask his body to do. AND this was with an athlete that had been to the top.. we had the run and takeoff and the body (191 lbs at the trials from a “normal” 196/198, with a 302 power clean.. not that the power clean is what we changed physically.. it was just the test of how we had changed the power and explosiveness needed to get the numbers, horizontal + vertical = resultant velocity, to grip higher.. bend the pole 30% BUT in a way with a big up and in impulse that it was bent correctly and would unload just as easily as it loaded.

Loading a pole from a “down” posture produced from a “stretched” takeoff or none penultimate or from being under will not give you “air” on top. It is not about the % of bend 28% or 30% or even 33%.. it’s about the “how” and what the impulses were at the take off. If you “load” the pole incorrectly there will be a delay in the swing and a subtle delay in the “straightening” of the pole. That delay causes a delay in your “giant” swing. Even Bubka had jumps with the pole bent 30+% and jumped a world record height. Some scientist somewhere should have that data. Yes there is an optimum “blend” of flex, the method the pole is loaded, with the force of the boby according to Petrov and Bubka… and me.. with an “up” impulse.. ALWAYS…. Let me use a fishing analyze.. it’s like catching a fish on light tackle (pole).. you gotta’ get the technique right.. you gotta’ have finesse . Ultimately shorting the swing radius, correctly and more allows the vaulter to grip higher, this is why fiberglass was better than Bamboo and steel.. as long as they would bend and not break and come out of the bend, right flex, so the vaulter could swing effectively form the top. Vaulters that grip high and “fall” over the bar are not pole vaulting efficiently either because of the pole or technique..

Tully was getting much closer in 1984 than the data shows.. a couple of weeks before the Games he jumped at 19-5 in practice 5 times with each being very close.. his numbers were.. getting there… his calf’s cramped on his last make before the 18-10 jump that Quinon made. We pasted to 19 and took one shot.. he ticked it of.. if anyone remembers he was in the pit looking up when the bar rolled off. He wasn’t able to take the other two shots because of the calf’s.

I left for Texas and we didn’t get back on track until 1987…

The numbers are there… it’s difficult, impossible, to get “more” Air from a lower grip and a stiffer pole.. physics has you “in a box” physically. Bubka was shorter than Tully which would give Tully a couple of advantages… but if Bubka could put more “energy” in at the takeoff AND in the correct way.. with the correct pole he could optimize all the variables and blow us away.. Joe Dial did this, Duplantis did this.. some have criticized parts of their vaults but they were actually optimizing the physics better than most.. I know Buckingham was.. I took his film and sat hours with Tully to show him why..

This is where we have made some “coaching” mistakes… we see an athlete that we don’t think should be capable of what they are doing… the picture says no… the science says yes..

Even Petrov says this event is a two pendulum action.. use the physics to optimize both. There really isn’t a short cut…

The Bubka jump I posted was not even close to optimum and he griped 5.10 with a max COM of 6.12.

He blew through, had a low pole bend number, under 30%, released both hands at the same time, which told me he could grip higher on the same pole, same input of energy and easily jump 6.20.. look at the data and give him a 5.16 grip and you have a 6.20 jump….

But instead of raising the grip he went to the next pole…. My opinion wrong choice… and that has continued to happen year after year by many vaulters after Bubka. Even pole designs have been changed to get more “catapult”… it’s not the catapult.. instead of more catapult we change our technique to adapt to the patterns… we grip higher, stay down longer, un-naturally to bend and move the grip.. no chance to swing and they abort the vault or fall over the bar. Women show this more than men.. most women don’t have the body strength to mass ration to over come being forced into a “none’ energy in.. energy out position.

it’s the “correct input of energy” with the correct stiffness and grip on a symmetrical bending pole…

dj

ps.. I’m sorry this is really “rambled”.. I’ve got a busy week.. got home late and have to hurry back out this morning…

[Barto]

Watch and see how long Blanca lasts....

[ADTF Academy]

Wish you could have come to Cologne, you would have enjoyed it quite a bit. Their biomechanists are amazing. I know Cees is working on getting the videos online.

Girls are less efficient than guys, beginning at the cellular level. Their muscles don't store energy as efficiently, and there are differences in the way their skeleton is put together. So if you had a guy and girl that were the same height and speed, if both were at a similar level of technical proficiency, the guy will jump higher.

18'/5.50 for women is not realistic, despite the fact that there are probably guys with speed and height comparable to the bigger girls who have done it.

I know some pretty inefficient guys who have jumped on 4.90 (4.80 grip) poles very ugly and went 5.20+.... What if the women are better than the male in all facets? How much better does the women need to be to match the male? What is the slowest guy you have seen jump on 16' poles, actual speed, weight and height figures please?

So let's think a tad smaller, 4.50, 4.55, 4.60 grip, 4.65 grip, What would it take to be able to rotate these into the pit safely. What percent would women need to be able to bend the pole down to. Men the magic number seems to be around 30% to near 12'.

Following Grips at 30%, which may be a tad to much for such a low starting grip. Any chance DJ you could do you math on any of the top women? What percent are they bending the pole down to on their jumps?

[Hand Hold] = [Max Bend] = [Minus Box] = [ Flyaway] = [Clearance]
4.50 = 3.15 (10'4") = 4.30 = .65 = 4.95
4.55 = 3.19 (10'5") = 4.35 = .69 = 5.04
4.60 = 3.22 (10'7") = 4.40 = .73 = 5.13
4.65 = 3.26 (10'8") = 4.45 = .77 = 5.22

*These are hypotheticals based off comparison of men and women* *Flyaway numbers are approximations of what a women should be able to hit with that grip*

With Everything being equal same max bend % should we see the women performing the entire vault in roughly the same time spans .5 to max bend and under 1.44 to max height or should we see faster times, which would mean lower max bend % correct? What is Issy hitting, what did Jenn hit, what did Mauer hit? Anyone got any data on the women? Men Flyaway magic number is 4'to 4'7" what is the women's magic number 2'1" to 2'9" or are they capable of more? What do you think is the correct figures and why?

How does this match up with men. I have personally seen a women who can rotate a stiff pole into the pit gripping at 11'9" from 3 lefts. She could have held higher, but not quite ready for that yet.

[ADTF Academy]

Good morning,

It took 18 months for Tully to change to the correct (enough) speed and close to the correct penultimate/takeoff. The first 6 months was all about the “physical” that would be needed to do what we would ask his body to do. AND this was with an athlete that had been to the top.. we had the run and takeoff and the body (191 lbs at the trials from a “normal” 196/198, with a 302 power clean.. not that the power clean is what we changed physically.. it was just the test of how we had changed the power and explosiveness needed to get the numbers, horizontal + vertical = resultant velocity, to grip higher.. bend the pole 30% BUT in a way with a big up and in impulse that it was bent correctly and would unload just as easily as it loaded.

What was Tully at before you started these changes? Over that 18 month what was the rate of improvement to digression in meets? At this time was Tully taken care of or was he struggling to make a name for himself too? How long had he been jumping and training prior to the start of this 18 months? What percent of perfect would you say he was at for the above statement? Was there ever any injuries or set back you had to deal with or did you have 18 straight months to work on this?

I do see a lot of similarities to Mark though in what your saying. We are currently in Month 18 as well though all of 2009 was spent on the sidelines trying to stay healthy from an injury and operation that occurred prior to him working with me. Except for attempting to stay healthy from Feb. till the US Nationals, not much progress could be made last year (Vault Sessions consisted of 3-6 jumps max) so from a development stand point we had to throw that time out, I'd guess he is sitting at Month 14. Before injury Mark was able to Hang Clean around 255 pounds for sets of 4. Not a big power clean guy from a speed perspective when do you ever get that low in your hip region when you run. With that and the other improvements in training/strength/technical despite injury it was easy to see the speed development was there. 2008 mark was clocked at near 9.0 M/s with a pole, in 2009 Peter clocked him near 9.8 m/s at US Nationals.

It would be interesting if you could take the same methods you use and figure out the Max Bend%, and Time to Max Bend and Max Height for 2008 and 2009 comparison of Mark.

2008 US Nationals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG6qodGaN70

2009 US Nationals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_Qwi04VyaY

Great stuff DJ. Have to get going to Vault Practice. Mark Hollis First Day on 5.10. Watch Out!

[Pogo Stick]

Watch and see how long Blanca lasts....

I have no doubt in his father's wisdom and knowledge. We will see. She grew up at track. She is 26-27 and had only one serious injury, actually disease: hyperthyroid. She is HJ world class from 2003 (7 years) and she plans to jump at least until next London Olympics (9 years at top). This is decent longevity.

[Barto]

Watch and see how long Blanca lasts....

I have no doubt in his father's wisdom and knowledge. We will see. She grew up at track. She is 26-27 and had only one serious injury, actually disease: hyperthyroid. She is HJ world class from 2003 (7 years) and she plans to jump at least until next London Olympics (9 years at top). This is decent longevity.

I have much doubt in the wisdom and knowledge of a coach who believes you can forego any sort of general prep training for more than about 16 months.

[Pogo Stick]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but your tone makes it sound so easy like anyone can do this.... I think you read the work of a very bright and informed man who I admire for putting his work out there, but not fully understanding the labor it takes to produce it on the elite level. Bubka wasn't born in 18 to 24 months same system since he was what 14? No other habits no other issues just what he was told.

I admit, I do not understand first hand what it takes to reach to elite level. I was not an elite vaulter and as for coaching, I am at the very first, baby steps. I am comforting myself that great athletes are often not so great coaches. I lived in the city with high concentration of elite athletes from different sports. I went to same school, same class and grew up surrounded with Olympics, World and European championship medallists.
The receipt and all ingredients for 6.40 have been around for almost 20 years. Why nobody did it? Some explanation can be that nobody connected all dots. It is like puzzle that nobody yet resolved. Lot of circumstances from Bubka's time cannot easily be reproduces: dedicated pole vaulting center with coaches, scientists, experts, athlete selection, resources, lot of time and lot of money.
USA has dozens of almost isolated islands, dozens of vaulters working alone or in very small groups that struggle with basic things: home, food, bills. There is no critical mass - concentration of all resources at one place and system that will bring breakthrough in training, methodic, nutrition, recovery, technology, etc. Pole vault is very complex event and without 8 years (2 Olympics cycles) of training is hard to reach maximum. Lot of world class vaulters are at the peak at his late twenties. Some US universities are world class centers, but after 5 years vaulters have to go move on and take care about himself. Each change in environment and coach can delay and even prevent progression.
Colleges and high schools spend lots of money to run athletics programs and the only measure of success are results. Resource utilization is very low, especially in high schools where millions of dollars worth equipment were in use for only few months. Such wasting of resources cannot be sustainable in long term.
Track and field has another big disadvantage - after finishing school there is no step forward. Football, basketball, baseball and hockey have professional leagues and colleges are they can pick the best and work with them.
I cannot offer receipt, but some drastic changes will be needed. Instead of schools, the main driving force for athlete development should be clubs, institutes regional and state training centers. Some system of stipends and/or substituted programs and loans with easy repayment should be available for athletes. I can't imagine that such system will become government sponsored, but if schools can run their T&F programs using similar premise, someone smart with vaulting background and vision maybe can find the way to do this.

[dj]

Quote,,…

What was Tully at before you started these changes? Over that 18 month what was the rate of improvement to digression in meets? At this time was Tully taken care of or was he struggling to make a name for himself too? How long had he been jumping and training prior to the start of this 18 months? What percent of perfect would you say he was at for the above statement? Was there ever any injuries or set back you had to deal with or did you have 18 straight months to work on this?

Tully, in “83.. jumped 18-3?? But did win pan am.. in 1979.. he won the World Cup over Volkov with a 17-10 in Montréal, I was there but wasn’t his coach.. don’t think we had officially meet. I had attended the Junior Champs when he and Earl jumped in Gainesville in 73..74?? Technically and speed wise his last two steps were long-longer (6-10 to 7-2) his “MID” was 54.. changing this was the first focus….

Tully had “given up” after the 1980 Carter fiasco… he played tennis for a while, Long Beach Open Doubles champion.. was very out of shape, way over 200 lbs.. in ‘83 Earl or Mike had never gripped 16 feet.. Mike jumped a WR 18-8 in the late 70’s that didn’t count because of a “dislodged bar” by the official without gripping 16 feet. We literally revamped his training to get him in the best physical shape of his life.. we trained for 6 months like an 18 year old.. speed, strength, agility, mobility.. much like decathlon training.. he really got strong and fast and reasonably good with the approach run by November/December of 83.. BUT his weight was still way up.. After Christmas we/he got serious with the diet… then the pieces started to come together.

By the way he wasn’t “sponsored” at this time.. but fortunately he wasn’t paying me, so he didn’t have that expense..

As far as help??!!.. Even in early ’84 he was “removed” from the Pepsi meet because he ask for an appearance fee like Bell and a couple more were getting.. He was local, a draw and UCLA was our training pit. Without telling us the meet promoter told the paper that Mike had “with drawn”.. that came out the morning of the meet.. we were still ready to compete and would have if THEY had not have “withdrawn” him..

So what I did was ask Joe Douglas/Santa Monica TC, if we could set up a “worldclass” competition the next weekend at an “all comers” meet Joe had at UCLA.. he said sure.. so I asked anyone that was at Pepsi if they wanted to stay over the week and compete the next Saturday.. some did.. Mike Jumped 18-11, new American out door record. I have film of that meet.. and used it to help “correct” some areas leading up to the Trials and Games.

I think Mike got something from Nike at that point or actually his PCC club??!! Maybe, maybe not.. I know it was very little. What we did do with the help of Petranoff and Bill Webb was get Mike added on the potential Olympic “athlete” work program at Anheiser Busch in the Valley. He worked 4 hours a day for 8 hours pay.

Sorry you ask about TAC/USATF.. and I probably should not respond here… but no they didn’t help us… they actually got in the way.. and this was with the trials CHAMPION with a new trial record.

First recent USATF.. I was in touch in December, 2009 concerning high performance, development and prep for LONDON. Again in January 2010, just two months ago, I made contact to follow up. I was told that what I was asking about would be decided in early February with follow up soon after that. February came and went.. I sent an email march 20!!! NO RESPONSE..

EEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRR….. why is it that the governing body of track and field can NEVER get it right.., same reasons I was given in 1976 in Indianapolis… first they will not hire or put people in position that will actually say NO to idiot thoughts, or step outside the box and do what’s right instead of what’s popular. I guess if you don’t do what popular you lose you position real quick…….. if they do hire them they (I doubt they let Brooks or Bubba/2008 Olympic head coach do things there way) don’t let them do the job correctly. I think they are actually afraid if someone comes in and does a great job it will “reflect” badly on the one that tried to do it before them and didn’t succeed. Second is ego’s and third USATF is a “want’a-be” popularity system. Kochel and I found that out when we did the vault development in the early 80’s.. Because Kochel would not take NO for an answer we got some things done in 84 but with “O” help from TAC>> you win USATF.. I lose and give up. AND this is not a ME, ME, ME.. as a coach. The “system” has done and has continued to do the same with NUMERIOUS good coaches. Actually there is a large number of coaches that are, again.. because this is not a new concept.. several times in my 40 year career we (“rough” coaches.. ; )).. have looked at forming their own “association” with the true Olympic Athlete builders ONLY. Then where there is a meet.. so when there was a quality meet the “Rough Coaches Association” could call the shots and enter there athlete or not… I here this could possible be in the works again!!! For me personally, and not because I’m to old or not capable of producing Olympians, I have so many things I love to do, graphic design, inventing, archeology, fishing, golf…more..more..more… that I can spend the rest of my life and never go near a track again unless it was in passing.

Back to ’84 with ? Tully.. Our prep got better and better toward the games we had laid out a plan that would let us “push” but not get hurt. I became real creative because Mike would “attack” everything to “change it today”…

The reason I EEEEEERRRR ‘ed USATF/TAC is this “behavior”, the names have been changed to “protect’ the guilty, don’t seem to change. Human behavior is a real ?? we see that even on here when all we are looking for is the “truth’ and how to improve ourselves.

Kochel and I put together a plan that got the top vaulters together for “practice” in the LA stadium.. and it gave them a chance to “posture’ and ‘cock’ fight.. If managed correctly this will and can make them all better. It didn’t just help Earl and Mike it helped them all, the ones that could handle it and learn from it. We had to present an “Olympic” scenario to teach them to focus under pressure, attack but with control. It worked well.. better for Mike, Earl and Lytle of course.

Trials were over Tully was champion. We went back to “what got us there” and tried to follow the same pattern we had used for the same number of days leading up to the Trials.

Then USATF?TAC got in the way. First suddenly UCLA was closed to us, prep for the Games!!! We came to the track for a scheduled session. Track closed!!! We headed for Mt sac.. we needed to keep to our schedule.. closed.. we headed to Asusa.. closed.. finally, remember LA freeway… we got to Irvine.. ok session even thought we had been in the car for 4 hours.. it took us 12 hours.. for Mike to get back home.. 9am to 9pm.. and what did TAC tell us to do.. Go to Santa Barbara and train until UCLA was open. Mike works.. I work.. they could care less.

We got it done anyway… Finally UCLA opened back up. They told all the personal coaches they would get credentials to go with their athletes.. did I get one.. NO.. the assigned Olympic jumps coach got one!!! Mike tried, I tried.. NO..

I got my own credential.. I did have athletes I had coached or help their coach coach from other countries.. Got my credential.. went with Mike to UCLA.. when we got to the pit the “assigned” coach was there.. Mike walked over to him and asked him to “stand right over here and watch, only”. That was the day he almost cleared 19-5 5 times.. he always jumped 6” to a foot in meets if the wind was ok and we had the poles needed. TAC wouldn’t/couldn’t even tell us where the pits would be for the final!!! I got my own credentials and was in the stadium 14 days with access to every corner of the facilty. I brought Mikes poles because we had seen to many times poles are missing or damaged when out of sight for a second..

Let me get off my stump.. Individual athletes and individual coaches create Medalist. Our “system” has NOTHING to do with it. You can take that to the bank. I have never needed to be a “staff” coach for anything, any meet. I actually prefer not to be..USA staff puts you in a box.. and in the 80’s you had no access to the athlete or the track.. I have even been “carded” for coaching my athlete during the competition… If I have the Medalist I will be at the Games or World Championship. I was in the stadium and all the facilities in Berlin even without an athlete there.

Remember.. Individual athletes and individual coaches win medals.. That is the number one thing that associations don’t get.. and one of the reasons that you don’t have those great coaches and athletes on this board is they are treated with tremendous disrespect, USATF many times does the same thing.. Human behavior!!! Funny thing but it is not funny. The number one thing a great coach or great athlete should get is a little respect. I don’t coach for respect and wasn’t an athlete for respect.. but none of the athletes and coaches I know that have reached or help an athlete reach levels that are the top 10 in the world or even their own country should not be ‘sniveled” at by those that couldn’t even carry their poles to the track much less pick one up and carry it down the runway gripping upwards of 16 feet.

So.. I’m going to post some more numbers.. I’m putting them together after I post this…

Sorry to get of the subject.. but you did ask…

By the way the numbers I posted on the other thread were about the plant/takeoff.. here I’m expanding them.. because we, for cause and effect reasons haqve to look at the “big’ picture. Even environment, financial and coaching input.

dj

a quick PS... if you wonder how i can be in a "credentialed" stadium or function.. i'm not majic or "powerful.. i actually have a fun energtic simple approach..

but.. here's the but.. If you are in this game "for the athlete", other coaches that are "in it for the athlete" will open their doors. if you are in it for yourself.. stay home.

[Robert schmitt]

USA has dozens of almost isolated islands, dozens of vaulters working alone or in very small groups that struggle with basic things: home, food, bills. There is no critical mass - concentration of all resources at one place and system that will bring breakthrough in training, methodic, nutrition, recovery, technology, etc. Pole vault is very complex event and without 8 years (2 Olympics cycles) of training is hard to reach maximum. Lot of world class vaulters are at the peak at his late twenties. Some US universities are world class centers, but after 5 years vaulters have to go move on and take care about himself. Each change in environment and coach can delay and even prevent progression

I've been thinking about this. This is just a rambling of what I'm thinking about 7-10 years down the road. But I might be able to create a situation where I could Sponser 1 or 2 vautlers through my chiropracitc office. They would have access to all chiro services, I could hire them also so they would have some income and a flexable training schedule. I have a network pf PT's, Nutritionists, and massage therapists, also I could provide a apartment. Western WA there are several Vault opportunities with Pat Lacari at UW, Rick Baggget, Club northwest, a indoor facility in Bellingham. I have year round access to our local HS track. I don't know how hard it really is for an emerging elite or If it is something worth pursing that's why I'm kinds of "throwing it out there" and seeing what you think.