Taking off out...now what?

[altius]

Doesn't his speed play a factor? indeed it does -- but equally important is HOW an athlete runs!

[mcminkz05]

2) I'm so used to being forced to swing by taking off under that I haven't learned the timing necessary to have to consciously initiate the swing with an out takeoff. I know the swing is an important part of loading the pole and moving it to vertical, and when I try to swing early and powerful I feel as if I'm just going to my back right off the ground which is a problem I haven't had since I started pole vaulting years ago (for the most part).

Being in the same position as you right now, I would think this is more the problem. I have gone from taking off under to taking off in the correct spot recently as well, and I know I really feel I am rushing things due to being used to having to do so. Same problem, I come up short on much smaller poles than I can usually get on. I have injured my leg since then (go figure) but am interested to see what everyone else thinks!

[baggettpv]

Instead of trying to learn new positions from a high stress situation (longer run) thinks about relearning from step one. Like how we teach beginners, build those drills into your warmups then proceed to 6 step approaches with a straight pole. Measure your takeoff efficiency by how high you can hold on a straight pole and get into the pit from 6 steps. Spend some time doing this....every jump day. haha the hot one J_Gal is at 4'7" above her standing grip right now. Last year (pre 13') she was only able to get about 3'6" and jump on 13' poles. Now she's on 14' 150 lb. so there is a relationship. Andjei measure this ability by 2 x body heighth plus a certain number of inches. I presented this in Reno in 1996. Come to Oregon City and talk to Latius and myself about many of these issues.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

[dj]

i had a huge tendency to brace myself before i took off from the ground. When i did this, i slowed down and couldn't take off at a good angle.

i seem to remember when petrov did the first pole vault summit.. that this was a point of importance.

his thoughts were.. when a vaulter takes off "out" actually "on".. there is little or no resistance from the pole.. until the vaulter actually leaves the ground... hence.. a free takeoff...

in his judgment many/most vaulters tend to "clutch" or pull in with the arms because they "needed" to feel the pole for security... this was a big error.. he infact encouraged bubka to extend more.. until the vaulter and pole are working with/against each other..

and that point is quickly after take-off.. which he and bubka explained as a "brief instant"

i gathered they felt the vaulter was "afraid" because if you do not "feel" the pole it is very much a natural tendency to pull in instead of reaching higher.. reaching higher is a better position to apply force and to complete a correct leg swing...

all in a "brief instant" at the takeoff

dj

[dj]

HOW an athlete runs!

ps

EIU.. could you give us the length of your last three steps...

Left... Right... Left... >box ..... if you are right handed

dj

[Barto]

The bottom line is that this can be the scariest feeling in the world. It can be countered however by actively engaging the mind with another task ie concentrate on jumping up and extending the arms away.

[OUvaulterUSAF]

i had a huge tendency to brace myself before i took off from the ground. When i did this, i slowed down and couldn't take off at a good angle.

i seem to remember when petrov did the first pole vault summit.. that this was a point of importance.

his thoughts were.. when a vaulter takes off "out" actually "on".. there is little or no resistance from the pole.. until the vaulter actually leaves the ground... hence.. a free takeoff...

in his judgment many/most vaulters tend to "clutch" or pull in with the arms because they "needed" to feel the pole for security... this was a big error.. he infact encouraged bubka to extend more.. until the vaulter and pole are working with/against each other..

and that point is quickly after take-off.. which he and bubka explained as a "brief instant"

i gathered they felt the vaulter was "afraid" because if you do not "feel" the pole it is very much a natural tendency to pull in instead of reaching higher.. reaching higher is a better position to apply force and to complete a correct leg swing...

all in a "brief instant" at the takeoff

dj

I think you said it best!

Yeah, when I first started taking off 'out' it was an unnatural feeling I wasn't use to. Zero resistance is a weird feeling at take-off. But you get use to it and you begin to gain confidence. Just know that the next phase is to swing the piss out of your trail leg and that action will create enough force to penetrate into the pit. The times I bailed out on a free take-off (unless it was a softer pole) I would end up on the front bun. Practice, Practice, Practice the feeling will become natural after a while.

[VTechVaulter]

14'4" grip = 48' mid refer to DJ's mid chart

http://www.polevaultpower.com/docs/djmidchart.doc

i will probably once again get crucified for saying this but. the mid chart is not perfect. if you are 5'10-6'. then your numbers will line up with this chart very well. however if you are closer to 6'4 or 6'5, your mid may be farther out. so 49 may be right for you. just make sure your last steps are turning over faster and you are jumping up and being tall into the plant.

simple case in point about the mid chart. 2 people gripping the same height. one is 6'10, one is 5'10. are you saying their take off mark should be at the same place. cuz basic trig says it wont be. now interestingly enough. if your stride length is the same, the taller person should have a further under mid. however especially on longer runs, 16-18 steps, the longer stride length overpowers the difference it take off due to angles.

im not calling DJs chart wrong or anything.. im just saying a little interpreting needs to be done for people of different sizes.

[master]

VTechVaulter, I think dj acknowledges that, at least he did when I asked him about my particulars in this discussion topic Mid Mark Chart.

-master

[ladyvolspvcoach]

Actually, DJ's chart (not to switch topics) is pretty close. But it is a series of parametric dimensions based on a 6' tall person with average proportions. If your vaulter is 5' then the number for the take off and mid mark move out away from the box by exactly 1 foot. Like wise if the vaulter were 7' tall the marks move in toward the box. I've actually checked these numbers out physically and have had this conversation with DJ.

[vaultman18]

i will probably once again get crucified for saying this but. the mid chart is not perfect. if you are 5'10-6'. then your numbers will line up with this chart very well.

Well he does state in his first line he is 5'10". But you are correct there can be other factors but DJ's chart is pretty darn close.

[dj]

i will probably once again get crucified for saying this but. the mid chart is not perfect. if you are 5'10-6'. then your numbers will line up with this chart very well. however if you are closer to 6'4 or 6'5, your mid may be farther out. so 49 may be right for you. just make sure your last steps are turning over faster and you are jumping up and being tall into the plant.

simple case in point about the mid chart. 2 people gripping the same height. one is 6'10, one is 5'10. are you saying their take off mark should be at the same place. cuz basic trig says it wont be. now interestingly enough. if your stride length is the same, the taller person should have a further under mid. however especially on longer runs, 16-18 steps, the longer stride length overpowers the difference it take off due to angles.

vtech

you are correct on the math at the takeoff.... and each vaulter should not try and takeoff anywhere other than close to a vertical line from their top hand to the runway...

the takeoff is not the most telling or critical piece of info on the chart... the takeoff point is determined by each individual vaulters reach..

but speed is determined by stride length and stride frequency and stride length is dertermined by the force a runner/vaulter has as they "push" from the surface...

if a runner/vaulter strikes the ground in from of the bodies mass or "ball of the foot in front of the knee" they will have more ground time, lower/slower speed... leg length and "tall...ness" are not an issue in speed or stride length...

yes mike tully's takeoff did not match my chart because he was 6-4..

if he was 12" closer, because of reach, but had the same "MID" as a shorter vaulter ... that would mean his strides were all ready 2" longer ... and if they were running the same speed that would mean tully was "reaching" by 2" per stride ......... so "theoretically" his "MID" should be a foot closer not a foot further out...

if a vault is tall and takes off.. 12" closer because of the hypotenuse of the triangle and has a "MID" 12" out from the norm on my chart... they would be taking strides that are 4" longer, each, over the last 6 strides..

you would have to view your film.. but that could put the ball of the foot in front of the knee and cause "over striding" which could make it difficult to "get the feet down" and difficult for the vaulter to have an "UP" impulse at the takeoff... over loading the pole toward the box ... and not toward the back of the pit.. over bending in the "wrong" way..... and giving the vaulter and coach the thought that the pole is to small....

vaulters who stretch and takeoff this way will allways have to "go to a bigger pole"

now.. i know the math i described above would indicate the coach should move the vaulters "MID" based on there true takeoff point so the stride length and frequency match the "speed" which matches the "grip".. but i, as a coach don't automatically do this... this is where as a coach i "fine tune" based on the athlete i'm coaching.. and what they need...

that is why the chart is a "tool".. one that is based on science and application of force...

i would rather err on the side of keeping the vaulters steps too close rather than to far out.. "close" the vaulter can "chop" and explode.. "OUT" they will always sink and slow............

hope this helps...

no the chart is not "majic" or the "last word" on pole vaulting...

but i do wish every vaulter in the country could get their run "ON" the way i have taught it for 30 years... we sure would vault.. higher, safer and have a blast too...

dj