Dropping the lead knee - time for a retrospective?

[KirkB]

Also, I get a different number. To clear 5.80 with a 4.83m grip, it is a 1.17m push, I think you calc'd for a 6m (1.37m)? No big deal. 1.17 is the top of spectrum, but has been done before, 1.37 as you mention is near impossible, or rather at that point you should be gripping higher.

Right you are.

I started out my post comparing him to 6.00 club members, thus the 1.37 pushoff.

However, I came back down to earth when I realized that before he soars into that stratosphere, he needs to break the 19' barrier. But in my haste at lowering the target PR, I forgot to subtract 0.20 from the pushoff he would need.

I think I agree with everything you pointed out, including the possibility that he COULD clear 19' with his current grip. I say that because his numbers are within the expected range - although they can only be relied upon when comparing traditional vaulters (Petrov or drive vaulters). A 1.17 pushoff is only near the top end of the numbers for a 6.00 vaulter - but would be VERY good for a 5.80 vaulter!

I still don't have good data for the 5.60-5.80 range, but according to DJ's Mid Chart, the "normal" grip for someone in that range is 4.90-5.00 (a 36" to 40" pushoff). Colwick already has a 39" pushoff. Jumping 5.80 with that grip would be a phenomenal 46" pushoff.

It would be one helluva vault, but it's not impossible ... for him!

It would be great if Jason gets onto bigger poles for the outdoor season, and pops a big one. But I'm not going to judge him in terms of what he can or cannot do in the next few weeks ... or even months. To be fair, I think he'll prove himself as the Real McCoy if he can clear 5.80 in the next few YEARS. If you look at some (most?) of the other 19'+ vaulters, they broke that barrier YEARS after they graduated from college! (Yeh, I know ... Walker and Skipper excepted.)

Kirk

[decanuck]

I'm still just flabbergasted by that video. I can't believe there's a human that can jump like that. It's incredible! I think if I tried to do that I'd break my spine.

FYI, Colwick is jumping on a 4.90m 200lbs (he was on about a 205lbs, 14.0 flex at the end of last outdoor), gripping about 15'10 , he weighs about 155lbs. For those who question his efficiency, that is about 50lbs over his weight

50lbs over weight is completely absurd, and speaks directly to the quality of his swing. I'm not all that surprised to learn he's on a 4.83 grip--after all, a low swing with both legs keeps the centre of mass close to the rotational axis of the pole, enabling a high grip. That's why the old straight-polers would drop their lead knee. The drawback to that is that the centre of mass is then traveling down, opposite the direction you ultimately want it to go, which doesn't make for a very smooth, contiguous jump (hence why it's not widely done on the flexible pole). However it seems that Jason has avoided this problem entirely because of the fact his knee doesn't drive up in the first place--it just cocks backward in preparation for one, long, extended, ridiculously powerful swing.

Anyways, as someone who jumps with him and Butler on a daily basis, I think 5.80 is definitely within his ability, he will never be pure Petrov technique, but I think his very different takeoff blinds people to how close the rest of his jump is to Petrov style. Watch him from the hips up. Active pole drop, huge elastic drive, whip swing. He does these things better than almost anyone jumping right now. Anyways, just a few thoughts. As mentioned earlier he is a amazing athlete, and this technique would probably not work for many people, but it works very well for Jason and makes him very fun to watch.

I agree re: 5.80 and wish him the best of luck to get there. Believe me, the Petrov similarities did not go unnoticed. And we don't mean to pick him apart--his jump just seems so radically different that it, at first glance, doesn't compute with anything we've ever seen. I had to watch the video about 20 times at first just to get my brain around what was going on. I look forward to seeing how high he can go.

[KirkB]

... Colwick ... I'm not all that surprised to learn he's on a 4.83 grip--after all, a low swing with both legs keeps the centre of mass close to the rotational axis of the pole, enabling a high grip. That's why the old straight-polers would drop their lead knee. The drawback to that is that the centre of mass is then traveling down, opposite the direction you ultimately want it to go, which doesn't make for a very smooth, contiguous jump (hence why it's not widely done on the flexible pole). However it seems that Jason has avoided this problem entirely because of the fact his knee doesn't drive up in the first place--it just cocks backward in preparation for one, long, extended, ridiculously powerful swing.

That's a very good observation.

In a different thread, I mentioned a revelation that I had about GRAVITY pulling you DOWN as you're striving to go UP ... and the longer you took whilst hanging onto the pole, the longer GRAVITY had to pull you down.

With your comment (above) about knee droppers not following a very short path between the takeoff and the pushoff, I fully agree. TIME and DISTANCE are the enemies. So if you take too long, you lose the advantage of "the continuous chain". Likewise, if your CoM doesn't follow the shortest possible path (or at least a shorter path) from takeoff to pushoff, then there's leakage too.

In this respect, extra DISTANCE takes extra TIME. I've been on both sides of this technical issue. In my short runs and my best long runs (in 1971 only), I followed the continuous chain, and didn't crush the pole. Certainly in a short run vault, if you're not super-quick, you're not gonna get back-back-back (the rat-tat-tat rhythm of hurriedly getting fully inverted) into an inversion.

And in a long run, if you crush the pole, your CoM is not only going to follow a longer path to pushoff, but it's going to take longer. You have to find the happy medium, which is much closer to a "quick bend" than to a "pole crush". You need to key on always moving, always upward, and always as quick as you possibly can! That's how to beat GRAVITY!

... And we don't mean to pick him apart--his jump just seems so radically different that it, at first glance, doesn't compute with anything we've ever seen. I had to watch the video about 20 times at first just to get my brain around what was going on. I look forward to seeing how high he can go.

Kirk

[KirkB]

Not that you can describe a complex techique with a few short verbs, but in another thread, I said:

Don't tuck!

Seriously, for advanced vaulters: Run. Plant. Jump. Split. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear.

For intermediates: Run. Plant. Jump. Swing. Extend. Clear.

For beginners ... : Run. Plant. Jump. Swing. Clear.

No matter what your level of experience, THERE IS NO ROCKBACK OR TUCK!

Having a bit of fun with this, I need to add a couple more ...

For Lukyanenko: Run. Plant. Jump. Split. Drop. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear.

For Hooker: Run. Plant. Jump. Split. Whip. Drop. Extend. Fly. Clear.

For Colwick: Run. Plant. Jump. Arch. Whip. Extend. Fly. Clear.



Kirk

[dj]

good morning

Bubka..... RUN...JUMP/PLANT...SWING

dj

[volteur]

yes dj, study Bubka more closely! Read Petrov more thoroughly. Compare everyone else to that ideal. Talk less think more.

[powerplant42]

What else would you have him compare to?

[volteur]

everyone else. I accept him as the ideal or as close to it as has been achieved. So because we have an ideal we can see where the others fall short and why. And then use that information to train more effectively. At least i hope i'm thinking logically about that. It just takes the premise that his technique is more ideal than everyone elses. An example might be worthwhile here.

[chasing6]

I was watching David Butler's 07 Summit lecture and noticed something interesting at 14:09.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8610699280052593028

"I don't know what to say about this ... he freaks me out."

I'm interested in hearing what he would have to say about Colwick's double swing, since the vaulter in the video reminds me a lot of the NCAA Champ. There seems to be a lot of concern (dare I say fear?) in David's tone as he talks about his vaulter's technique, and even the background commentary has the same tone. To me, both vaulters seem to use the double swing to great effect, and I have no doubt that they are both jumping safely.

Here's a link to Colwick's NCAA Indoor Jumps for those who need a refresher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOBAV8HLVEc

[flying scotsman]

That is colwick in the summit lecture video. Butler coaches him.

[dj]

yes dj, study Bubka more closely! Read Petrov more thoroughly. Compare everyone else to that ideal. Talk less think more.

Volteur

I think i have studied Bubka pretty thoroughly since 1983 when he won the world championship and jumped in LA..

I have spent extra time studying what I felt were his best jumps.. the ones that had these things in common..

One.. a very high “reach” at the plant.. higher than Tully who was 4 inches taller.
Two.. high speed and good posture on the runway.
Three.. take off “out” and what I call “catching the pole before it catches you.”
Four.. very fast pole speed after takeoff.. as indicated by the time of the jump from TO to maximum height above the bar.
Five .. Fast AND long swing.
Six.. maximum “percent” of pole bend
Six .. hitting the “back flat” position just about the time maximum bend is achieved..
Seven.. very effective extension.. or what we now call “Bubka’s..

While studying and analyzing all this in his jumps I kept to major thoughts.. one was application of force and two was the continuous chain…

I have tried to break all vaults down with some of these things in mind… since 1974 when I started using my super 8 camera and projecting the vaults onto a drawing pad and creating stick figures of Earl.

dj

[Stensol]

Recent video of Colwick from Rottach, Germany (July 13, 2009):

side view = http://www.touchtheclouds.de/fileadmin/videos/2009/2009_07_12_rottach/2009_07_12_jason_colwick_572_seite.mov

front view = http://www.touchtheclouds.de/fileadmin/videos/2009/2009_07_12_rottach/2009_07_12_jason_colwick_572_front.mov

I've found another Colwick-like video featuring another vaulter, and I find this pretty fascinating, so I've started a new topic devoted to "Colwickesque" vaulting: http://www.polevaultpower.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=18287