bottom hand

[dheldr01]

what is the exact role of the bottom hand in the vault, besides balance and NOT pushing/blocking out with it? Does the bottom arm row with the to arm?

Also, how far apart should the hands be? I have been coaching an arms length apart. I have 1 vaulter who's arms are abnormally long for his body so I am going to start having him grip his hands a little closer together because it looks like his bottom arm gets caughts up in his inversion. I have another athlete who's hands are the length of her wrist to forearm apart. She says it helps her invert easier(this was told to her by another coach).

Thoughts and opinions please

[bel142]

Geez you get to coach Stretch Armstrong and a girl with Mikey Mouse hands?!?!?! Lucky....

Anyhoo...

When you are inverted the bottom hand/arm can help the top end. It is very easy to keep the bottom arm a little bit more rigid making the vaulter get away from the pole on the top end, during pull through and fly away. If the vaulter, when inverted, can pull the arm/hand in, so the elbow is pointed down (or up depending how you are looking at it) the shoulders/body are pulled to be more inline with the pole during pull through, this makes the pull through more efficient and the fly away to be more inline with the pole. Note the cover of Beginner to Bubka.

Just a thought...
-bel

[dheldr01]

Now which approach would you recommend for distance between hands. Obvously Bubka did an arm length (based on the cover of B2B). My male athlete has an easier time pushing off the top of the pole with his own energy, the female vault jumps on 150lb poles and wieghs about 120 so she gets a lot of return from the pole but she has a lot of difficulty pushing of the pole? How's does the distance between hand grips effect the the push off and inversion. Side note. The female athlete also has very long arms.

[bel142]

If you were to ask me, (this is a technical aspect that can be debated) when I vault, I measure from right/top hand to bottom of the Right arm pit, so I end up with a grip that is about shoulder width plus a little bit. I am a fan of a wider grip for a few reasons. With a wider grip the shoulders and torso do not hit the pole completely square. The top hand shoulder gets pushed back slightly so there is a torsion within the body allowing for tension be be formed across the body, like a spring being twisted in opposite directions. This movement/recoil in twisting can be used to move the pole a few frames later in the vault.

With a narrower grip, the vaulters shoulders can hit the pole square setting up the longest possible lever for the swing. Furthermore, the vaulter has probably a better ability to pull through because the bottom arm is placed closer to the mid line and further down the chest, so the musculature of the bottom hand/arm is in a better position to create force. For that reason, and because females' center of mass tend to be lower and closer to the hips I tend to think females get a befit from vaulting with a narrower grip because they have more weight lower in the lever. Where as guys' have more of their weight in their shoulders (higher in the lever) getting their lighter hips higher can be done with less effort... Male vaulters can tend to get away with a less efficient pull through.

-bel

[vault3rb0y]

When the grip width is wider, an athlete will be able to compensate more easily for the take off, by pushing UP with both hands to begin pole movement once the pole makes contact. This keeps the hips behind the pole a split second longer, allowing you to swing more fully. However this delays the natural swing on the pole and wastes time that you could be adding energy into the pole with a long swing. Its a compensation for when the take off is not perfectly free. It also means that when you swing back on the pole and begin to pull, you will not be able to pull as effectively because your bottom hand will come off the pole quicker than the top. Notice how stiff-pole vaulters narrow their grips once they leave the ground, so they can really yank themselves over the bar.

A torsion of the shoulders cannot "spring-load" your shoulders, allowing them to put energy back into the pole. The energy that is needed to contort your shoulders/arms at take off is energy that could have been directed into the pole. Even if you could "row" back after contorting and unload the spring, your pole speed will already have decreased after you leave the ground slightly, and you are now in a loosing battle with adding that energy back into the pole. Now, you can "Spring load" by allowing BOTH hands to come back behind your head and finishing your take off into an inverted C, but if only one arm goes back, then energy that could go through your swing is now going into the action of bring your shoulders back to center when you swing. At least that's what I see.

[KirkB]

what is the exact role of the bottom hand in the vault, besides balance and NOT pushing/blocking out with it? Does the bottom arm row with the to arm?

No ... the bottom arm should not row. In fact, the top arm shouldn't row either. A row occurs when your swing isn't sufficiently powerful enough to invert you "naturally". It's a helper ... a crutch ... to help you recover from a bad bottom half. For an intermediate vaulter, it's OK to row ... but only becuz you're going to have less-than-optimal vaults (most of the time) that you need to recover from during the inversion phase. It's not recommended, but it's better than tucking. But what you should be focussing on is getting into the proper body position for a powerful swing. If you swilng "properly" you won't have to row.

So to answer your question, your best bet is to try to swing naturally ... first in the downswing with only your top arm ... and then (as the pole rolls to vertical and swings to the side) with both hands ... simulating a swing thru a Bubka on rings or highbar.

... how far apart should the hands be?

If you're dropping the pole fairly weightlessly, and if you buy into the idea that the bottom hand is just for balance ... which you do ... then the optimal grip width should be optimized for the upswing/invert/extension phase of the vault ... not for anything before that.

So hang on a highbar with hour hands directly above your shoulders ... then swing. That's your NATURAL swing. So THAT'S your optimal grip width.

Kirk

[KirkB]

A torsion of the shoulders cannot "spring-load" your shoulders, allowing them to put energy back into the pole. ...

I've never heard of this technique before today ... I don't think it follows the Laws of Physics.

Kirk

[dheldr01]

does this man the row will happen no matter what and without any effort required if all steps prior are done correctly? The swing is natural and will happen no matter what if everything before is done properly, but we still use our body to swing harder, right?? I've always trained to row but have never felt that I've actually had to row while vaulting.

[KirkB]

does this mean the row will happen no matter what and without any effort required if all steps prior are done correctly?

No, you will only "need" to row if the swing isn't powerful enough to invert you. You're assuming that a "row" is proper technique ... it's not.

The swing is natural and will happen no matter what if everything before is done properly, but we still use our body to swing harder, right??

No. If you swing "naturally" it means that you don't have any abnormalties in your swing ... like your bottom hand changing the fulcrum of your swing ... or like being under so far that you don't even have a chance to swing "properly". Swinging naturally does NOT mean that you just let yourself swing ... without trying to swing HARDER. A NATURAL swing can still be a strong, powerful swing ... if you accelerate it by a powerful downswing.

I've always trained to row but have never felt that I've actually had to row while vaulting.

I don't think you should train yourself to row. Instead, you should train yourself to swing "properly" ... which is the same as swinging "naturally".

If you've never HAD to row, then no problem. But if you've never HAD to row, then I don't understand why you're training yourself to do it.

Kirk

[dheldr01]

Because so many coaches promote the row in my area...

I always try to swing as powerfully as possible and train to do just so. It was just my interpretation that you will swing naturally if take off is finished properly

[KirkB]

I always try to swing as powerfully as possible and train to do just so.

It was just my interpretation that you will swing naturally if take off is finished properly

If you "finish your takeoff properly" then you ARE setting yourself up for a powerful swing. But you're not done yet. You COULD just hang on ... which seems to be your interpretation of a "natural swing".
But your POWERFUL swing can be made even MORE POWERFUL by a vigorous downswing. Don't just hang onto the pole and expect it to do all the work. MAKE it work for you! ACCELERATE your swing ... with a forceful downswing!

Kirk

[dheldr01]

My interpetation of a "natural swing" is not to "just hang on". And let the pole do the work. My interpretation is comparable to watvhing looney toons...

What happens when the Coyote runs into a street sign? His arms and legs "swing" forward when his torso hits the resistance of the steel sign.

So when you take off properly, the resistance is naturally going to cause your leg to move foward, but it is the vaulters job to make sure the swing is as powerful as possible with coorect form to ensure inversion and penetration...is that coorect?