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I responded to a topic on the Equipment forum - "The best spike for beginning pole vaulters...", but I now realize that my reply to Barto was off-topic for that thread, so I'm re-posting it here - in the Intermediate Technique forum (since I don't think it's Beginner Technique, nor is it Advanced Technique).

This issue arose from this inquiry of mine ...

I notice that TJ spikes are popular with pole vaulters. Is this for training or for competitive vaulting? The reason I ask is that in a competitive vault, your heels shouldn't touch the runway, so why the need for a padded heel? Wouldn't the existence of a padded heel make it more tempting for a vaulter to use bad technique by taking off flat-footed?

Kirk

Barto replied by saying ...

Barto wrote:Your heel always contacts the ground when you takeoff.

Really?

Mine never did.

And according to Petrov, you should roll on the ball of your foot on takeoff. The ball of your foot is just behind your toes - nowhere near your heel. Thus, you should not be flat-footed.

I can understand that you do take off flat-footed if you're under, but if you do a free takeoff, you're not going to jump as strongly flat-footed - there's considerable leakage (loss of energy) if you takeoff flat-footed.

Kirk

In the other thread, Barto said:

Barto wrote:Your heel always touches the ground. Trust me.

Barto, I need hard facts or evidence.

I can't just trust you when what you say is contradictory to what my experience is, and contradictory to what Petrov says.

I'm sure there must be a misunderstanding here that's easily explained.

Kirk

I don't think he is talking about jumping "flat-footed" off the ground. I do believe that many vaulters have thier heels touching before take-off....i.e. they are slightly on their heel then roll up onto their toe to take-off.....the heel can be touching the ground and NOT be the center of pressure.

So to answer your question....the ball of the foot/toe should be the last thing to leave the ground......that being said, I strongly believe that if a pressure sensor was put in the shoes of a vaulter, it would register some force just before takeoff at the heel.

Go to www.stabhoch.com and frame advance any vaulter on there. You will see that everyone's heel touches the ground during the takeoff. This is true of all LJers, TJers, PVers, HJers..... The only way a human could jump off the ground at speed without their heel contacting the ground would be to have an artificial ankle installed.

The foot sets down flat with no weight on the heal. Weight is on the ball of the foot.
When the foot contacts the ground it is in a dorsiflexed position ready to propel the vaulter into the air. My demo on youtube for the takeoff can explain some of this.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

I think it is almost impossiable to jump at take off without the hill touching slightly, just because the muscles in your feet are not that strong with such force. Ive even seen a video of isenbeyava doing walking type drills and she basicaly rolls her feet (not saying she is practicing that or does it when she runs just what i saw in training video). I have had several sprint coaches tell me that when running you always keep your toes up so tht when your foot touches the ground you dont have to wait for your heel to go down and then back up like a spring, the spring hits loaded. In this case if your toe is up whenit strikes the ground the heel is probabl like a few mm off the ground while pressure is on front half of foot, the heel may touch slightly but with not much force on it.

And on the padded heel, Id go as padded as possiable, expecially for incidents when you may have to bail out and land on feet... accidents happen.

Along with my previous post, the DVD I made on "Groundwork" will give a process for developing a good running and jumping posture. I will bring some with me to Reno. Look me up.

Rick Baggett
WSTC LLC

The first question was it a flat foot touch down or heel first to flat foot touchdown?

If it is a solid flat foot contact than a positive thing for aiding in process to apply vertical force at takeoff.

The second question is was the contact under COM or in front?

If under COM than excellent if out front than it is a braking action and not good.

All jumping based activities call for a flat footed based touchdown and subsequent jump. This flat foot application allows for an easier application of vertical forces at takeoff. Studies have shown a pole vault takeoff calls for a lower take off angle than lets say a long jump takeoff so the need for an as observate penaltimate type action is reduced. Due to lower vertical forces needed at takeoff. Similar to that of a triple jump first phase. But still demonstrates a flat footed touchdown prior to take off ideally under the COM.


I am curious the rolling off the foot comment this is usually talked about on the penultimate step otherwise referred to as bridging or rolling off the foot.

Technically speaking the last two steps are considered flat footed based contacts. This allows the for the bridging off the penaltimate reaccelerating the hips and body forward into the take off step. If done correct will create a higher instantaneous velocity at takeoff otherwise seen as accelerating into the takeoff. Yes the last thing to leave the ground will be application of force through the ball of the foot. The key thing is the application of vertical forces. This is basic takeoff/jumping mechanics.

Once again solid flat foot contact under the COM... If it is out front heel will strike first and breaking affect.

Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread so far. I appear outnumbered on this issue, and I'm not going to argue my point on this any (much?) further, although I still think that my heel didn't touch. I attribute this conviction to my memory of how my takeoff FELT, rather than any photographic proof - which I don't have.

I concede that the acceptable technique is that the heel does indeed touch the ground, albeit without any (or much) force.

But to be perfectly honest, I'm wondering if this is one area where my strength was superior to most elite vaulters. To answer ADTF's question, I definitely DID NOT have a heel-to-toe takeoff action - which would infer braking. I purposely avoided any areas of leakage- ESPECIALLY during the takeoff. Without a very strong calf muscle on your takeoff leg, I can appreciate that you will simply not be able to take off without your heel touching. Although my ankles are "shot", my calf muscles - even at my ripe old age (59) are still "ripped". I attribute this strength to my years and years of high-jumping and basketball prior to and throughout high school (and SOME natural, God-given strength). Very strange how I ran so slow, but jumped off the ground so well. But hey, you make do with what you have!

However, I did misquote Petrov, when I said ...

... according to Petrov, you should roll on the ball of your foot on takeoff.

I had read Rick Baggett's blog, where he published "Petrov’s Artical @IAAF" here: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=46293324&blogID=332035272

Petrov said ...

The foot is placed for the take-off firmly with a quick roll-up on the ball of the foot.

... so when I recalled the quote from memory, that's what I said. However, when I re-read the article today (to try to answer ADTF's query about this), I now see that he said ...

The whole foot is placed on the ground with a bias for an instantaneous roll (active placement); the shock absorption phase will increase if the foot is placed starting with the toe.

... a few paragraphs above the part that I had recalled. I remembered that part because it impressed me that that's exactly how I did it (according to my recollection of the FEEL of my takeoff). However, due to the earlier quote, I took his comments out of context - there's nothing in his second quote that says your heel SHOULDN'T touch the ground.

I also take Rick's comments as gospel - I don't believe that Petrov is the only expert coach in this regard. I think Rick Bagget is too, and in this thread, he said ...

baggettpv wrote:The foot sets down flat with no weight on the heel. Weight is on the ball of the foot.
When the foot contacts the ground it is in a dorsiflexed position ready to propel the vaulter into the air. ...

I believe that his statement matches my experience. After all, I didn't FEEL any weight on my heel on takeoff, and I didn't analyze any film of my takeoff in detail to see if my heel touched, so I quite naturally ASSUME that my heel never touched.

I hope that we can all agree that you should strive not to:

1. Put much weight (if at all) on your takeoff heel on takeoff
2. Brake on takeoff

These are LEARNED skills. IMHO, beginners will put a lot of weight on their heel, and brake. Intermediates - not so much. They'll learn to put less and less weight on the heel. Only elites will master this, without any weight on their heel, and without any excessive braking action. Any comments on this point from any elite vaulters or their coaches?

On Point #1, your milage will vary according to the strength of your takeoff leg.

Point #2 might be controversial, since there is ALWAYS some braking action to convert horizontal momentum to vertical momentum. What I really mean to say is that you should not brake OTHER THAN the braking that's inherent in jumping off the ground. I'm sure someone else can say this better than I can.

Lastly, I caution you to not try to figure this out by analyzing vids of vaulters. Instead, you need to EXPERIENCE it. Just because a vid APPEARS to prove that the heel touches down, that doesn't mean that the vaulter should touchdown his heel BY INTENT. And just because you see on a vid that the heel's touching doesn't mean that there's weight on it. In other words, for elite vaulters, the touching of the heel is only a natural CONSEQUENCE of Rick's description of what occurs BY INTENT.

Maybe I haven't budged from my position all that much (other than admitting that I misquoted Petrov) ...

Kirk

And I will be presenting this and more info on Jan 10 and 11 at my place in Oregon City. Start at 11 am on Saturday. Email me for info baggettpv@aol.com

Rick Baggett

Another point or cue if you successfully did this action is that if done correctly it will almost feel like your jumping off two feet. The transfer from penultimate (2nd to last step for those that don't know what it means) to take off step will be so quick that the flat foot contact will happen as soon after the penultimate leaves the ground creating the last second acceleration everyone talks about otherwise referred to as instantaneous velocity at takeoff. This is what really matters not 5m speed. 5m speed is great but the speed at the instance of takeoff is more important.


This is also talk about as an action like a cut step in hurdling very low quick last step to result in a quick transfer of energy creating a vertical impulse at take off. Also creating the faster stride frequency of the last step producing higher instantaneous speeds.

If your last step feels like it takes forever for it to hit the ground I will put money on the fact that you are one under,two leaning back, three your heel strikes first and fourth it strikes in front of your COM. Major braking action and a lose of potential 3-4 stiffer poles you could be jumping on.

Try this.....

Stand up....

Ok without thinking....






There is an ant on the ground stomp it with your take off leg.





This is basically how the finally step should strike the ground. I am assuming you didn't kick the ant or drive your heel into the ant you stomped it. Stomp the ant with a stiff leg and explode into the air.