row? an optical illusion?

[KirkB]

... the last time i checked, you paddle a canoe and it takes two oars to row a boat.
Maybe the term should be paddle instead of row?

Ya got me on that one!

I'm clearly just as confused as everyone else about the PROPER definition of "row", so I gladly retract my definition.

From now on, if I'm referring to my type of "row", then I'll call it "paddle".

But still ... when rowing a boat, I pull both arms back simultaneously ... keeping my arms straight and using mostly the muscles in my shoulders, back, and legs, in a ... er ... rowing motion. How the heck does THAT kind of a "row" relate to rowing in PV?

Kirk

[dougb]

The way the row was defined to me is to pull yourself up the pull with a straight top and bottom arm because you cannot invert with your swing alone"

I like this because it fits what Kirk was saying about the inversion sans the folded lower arm. That is, it is moving the arms forward but at the wong time.
See:

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=19803

This girl is doing exactly that.

It is more a pushing with the lower arm than pulling with the upper arm. The result is, when the pole straightens the head goes up and the hips go down.

This is fitting the definition of the row being "bad".

By the way, rowing a boat seems to correlate with the beginning of the inversion. ie. A BUBKA.

Doug Balcomb

[LHSpolevault]

We have two definitions from people who have a depth of knowledge about the vault. (Sorry LHS but "pull themselves through" isn't exactly clear) Lets have more input.

Doug Balcomb

I'm not entirely sure about what "pull themselves through" really means. But it involves a paddling motion before you even finish your swing. I do hear a lot of the "after you take off, pull yourself up" being tossed around as well.

Initially, our girls head coach (they don't have a pole vault coach, as I coach our guys as well as some of our sprinters and hurdlers) used a bit of the latter portion of what I just wrote, but we've worked together with his girls the past few weeks and we're starting to get on the same page with things and the girls have started jumping much better, and more consistent meet after meet.

[souleman]

OK, I'll take a stab at this. I saw a video last week produced by Rick Suhr which showed a stubby exercise where the vaulter started with the arms straight and up slightly behind the head (top hand). It progressed out and down to reach a point where top hand would end up at the groin area and the bottom hand at the chest. He called it achieving position 1. His pop up drills focused on getting to this position 1 as well. The action looked like a canoe paddling motion to me, that is, if the paddler were laying down on his stomach in the canoe. Picture how that would work. Both hands would have to start out straight and in front as the paddle would enter the water. Then on the stroke, the top arm would have to stay straight as the bottom arm would have to bend to achieve the canoeing stroke. The complete stroke would end up with the top hand at the groin area and the bottom hand at the chest. I've pretty much been a "there's no rowing in pole vaulting" kind of guy but the use of this analogy might be something that can be visualized by a young vaulter. On the other hand I've seen too many vaulters do a "row" where in an effort to perform it, Not complete the stroke and end up sitting on the bottom arm which would look somewhat like a canoe paddling motion if the paddler was sitting up in the canoe. Regardless, if we have to call something "the chicken dance" to get a position visualized in our vaulters melon, then so be it. By the way, this top hand to the groin and the bottom hand to the chest is the exact position that Bubka is in on the cover of Beginner to Bubka.

[KirkB]

... The action looked like a canoe paddling motion to me, that is, if the paddler were laying down on his stomach in the canoe. Picture how that would work. ... and end up sitting on the bottom arm which would look somewhat like a canoe paddling motion if the paddler was sitting up in the canoe. ...

So rowing means exactly the same as paddling?

... this top hand to the groin and the bottom hand to the chest is the exact position that Bubka is in on the cover of Beginner to Bubka.

Agreed. But he didn't row or paddle to get there!

If you don't swing properly, then you won't swing NATURALLY into the position that Bubka's in on the cover of BTB2 (aka the "Inverted-I" position). So to get into the Inverted-I after a bad swing, you have to PADDLE. At least that's MY definition of the row (or paddle) ... and now apparently Souleman's too.

Kirk

[souleman]

One of these days I'll figure out how to put someones comment in the little box like you guys do. But I guess you're right Kirk, I would say it's more paddle than row. Either of which can not happen without a proper swing. I took the question as, is there a "row" or paddle in pole vaulting. I'd say a paddle (as I described in my earlier post). This is not to say that the arms paddle to create the force needed to get into Rick Surh's position 1 or like the picture on BTB2. I think when I hear coaches say "you have to row to get inverted", I take that (and I bet young vaulters do too) as the arms and shoulders are going to do all the work. The swing is what is going to get you there and the arms are just going to follow in the aforementioned paddle motion I described. (I know it's not that easy). Later.................Mike

[KirkB]

One of these days I'll figure out how to put someones comment in the little box like you guys do.

That's easy ... just click on the Quote button instead of the Reply button.

ClickOnTheQuoteButton.JPG (15.72 KiB) Viewed 5793 times

Kirk

[souleman]

Cool! Thanks Kirk

[master]

Hey Mike,
After clicking on the Quote button, then the text that is captured within the beginning quote and the ending quote html code can be modified. For instance you might just want to refer to one sentence that someone wrote so you would select and cut all the rest of the person's post, being sure not to disturb the html quote stuff within the square brackets. [ ] You have to be a little more careful if you quote a post that already has a quote in it. And don't forget that you can use the Preview button to look at how your post will look. If it doesn't display the way you wanted, just go back to the box you entered it in and change it and preview again till you like what you get. Then click the Submit button.

[souleman]

Thanks John. I love the fact that all of you guys and gals are so patient with me and my lack of ability with a computer. Thank God for spell check.

[powerplant42]

Row (v.) - exerting pressure down the length of the pole; resisting and/or reacting to the backward force resulting from pole-strike by dynamically contracting the latimus dorsi

Not to be confused with:

Pull (v.) - using the biceps to raise one's center of mass; muscling the vault with the arms, typically resulting in a massive flag-out

Are these definitions any good?

[twistpv]

i always pictured it as like rowing a canoe with both hands on an oar, when i was first told "row" i took it more as how the action should look rather than actually trying to "row" during my swing (i had a problem of blocking out and it gave me a visual on what my arms should be doing during the vault if that made sense )