Tuck & Shoot - Is this what he really teaches?

[HHSPVCoach]

Such a widely known name and camp. This could explain why there are still so many young vaulters doing it this way.

http://www.everythingtrackandfield.com/ ... eVaulting5

And then some answers to a vaulters question about why they can't get their hips up:

http://www.everythingtrackandfield.com/ ... oleVault12

[powerplant42]

Stay in front of your top arm in the Swing-Up as you draw both knees into your chest. Once your knees are into your chest, drop your head and shoulders down - not back. This action resembles a seesaw with your head and shoulders moving downward while your lower body moves upward. If done well, the Swing-Up puts you into an inverted position with your hips, legs and feet up and your head and shoulders down. It is essential that you do not pull or row the pole vault pole across your body. Keep your top arm straight. Your lower arm will also straighten as your head and shoulders drop. If properly executed, you have been able to invert your body without using your arms to pull yourself up.

Continuous Chain... riiiiight.

[IAmTheWalrus]

Yeah I hear you there PP, it seems to me the only way you are going to achieve such a swing is by collapsing into the pole so much that you are practically eating your own elbow. These types of things really upset me, there's no telling how many young vaulters are going to develop bad habits because of this.

[KirkB]

This one, entitled "Good Eye Focus Improves Pole Vaulting!" is also disappointing ...

http://www.everythingtrackandfield.com/ ... InsidePV13

During "The Approach Run", he says ...

Look straight ahead at eye level throughout the Approach Run. Focus on the back of the pole vault pit.

Hmm... So how do you know where the box is, if you're looking at the back of the pit?

Then, during "The Plant", he says ...

Don't fix the eyes on the pole vault box. Instead, look at the rising lower hand.

Hmm... My hand is connected to the pole, and I know where that is. But if I don't look at the box during my run, and I don't look at it during the plant, what are my chances of dropping the pole into it? I will agree that during the LATEST part of the plant, you don't want to keep your head down. But if you're STARTING your plant from a few steps out, what's wrong with aiming at the box then?

He then makes a good point of saying that during "The Swing" not to watch the bar as you're swinging up, or you'll tend to shoot into it. For Beginners, that's good advice.

But then, during "The Pull-Turn", he says (in part) ...

... Then the eyes and the rest of the body turn around the pole as one unit.

Hmm... In all my years of vaulting and coaching, I've never had to think about what my eyes are doing as the rest of my body is turning around the pole!

But as I was getting near the end of the article, I thought he'd be saying that you have to keep your eye on the bar as you're clearing it, so that your hands don't brush it off. But instead, during "The Fly-Away", he says ...

When the unit-turn is completed, the eyes face back down the runway away from the landing pit.

Hmm... Will something bad happen if I look at the bar as I'm clearing it?

This article is quite misleading. But thankfully, I don't know of a single vaulter that would ever follow his advice anyways.

Tell me how you can drop a very long pole in a very small box without looking at it! And tell me how you can clear your hands away from the bar without seeing where the bar is ... unless you've cleared it by so much that it doesn't matter!

Kirk

[sooch90]

maybe he's try to make the point you shouldn't stare at the box while your planting. By looking up, the focus is then on springing up and not into the box

tucking and shooting isn't the worst thing in the world. Plenty of very successful elite vaulters tuck and shoot. Sure maybe swinging with a straight trail leg is still better, but tucking and shooting won't ruin someone's vaulting career

[powerplant42]

If you read Tim McMichael's "absolutes" thread, you'll realize why what you said is wrong... (and edit 'should' to 'shouldn't')

Sooch, this guy is saying do it AS YOU SWING, not as the swing is finished, not AFTER you've finished your swing, but AS you swing. Guys like Walker and McMichael tuck and shoot 'correctly'. They do it after a good, long swing that carries their hips up. The swing is simply shortened at the very end in order to speed the rotation. It LOOKS NICE. If he proposed a loaded take-off AND this, it would be total power-vaulting/canon-vaulting, whatever you want to call it. Go under big time, then curl up into a ball and extend. Uh, WRONG... Fortunately he doesn't say take-off under. If he did, I might consider calling him up personally... he is way too out there.

Bubka said that his focus was 'to the front', that he didn't look at the box. Though that answer was not probed enough by the interviewers, I feel... he did not say that this was throughout the entire approach, or just as he planted. I see only disadvantages to running down a runway without looking at the box until you're almost there... WHAT IF IT'S WINDY? Would you close your eyes and vault? It's possible to do, but not safe. Ask altius about his coaching of a guy called Keiron Modra if you want a good bed time story this week.

And you should look at the freaking bar as you go over it.

This article is quite misleading. But thankfully, I don't know of a single vaulter that would ever follow his advice anyways.

I know dozens. Think about it. Here's a guy with a good rep as a vault coach, dealing out technical advice on a very legitimate website.

A shady looking man stands outside of a rickety old van. "Want some candy, little boy?" ------to-----> A fairly well respected coach sits by a computer screen. "Want some advice on how to pole vault, little boy?" Do you see the difference in temptation? And I'm serious! Why WOULDN'T young novices take his advice? Would you have listened to him 'back in the day' if you didn't have a coach KB? Answer truthfully...

[KirkB]

Sooch, you must have missed he part of his articles where he gives lip service to "Continuous Chain", and "Swing", yet you can tell that he doesn't mean them in the context of the Petrov model.

"Swing" is perhaps too generic of a word to claim as belonging to a particular model, but "Continuous Chain" should NEVER be used in the context of anything other than the Petrov Model, 6.40 Model, or any other variant of these 2 models. Agapit coined that phrase, and it means exactly what he defined it to mean - no more, no less. It's not a phrase to be used lightly by anyone that's not referring to the Petrov model.

I'm not debating which model is best here. That's for a different thread. I'm only saying that the author should call his "duck" a "duck", and not start using buzz-words like "continuous chain" and use them out of context.

TUCK/SHOOT is not CONTINUOUS CHAIN!

Kirk

[KirkB]

... I know dozens. Think about it. Here's a guy with a good rep as a vault coach, dealing out technical advice on a very legitimate website. ... Would you have listened to him 'back in the day' if you didn't have a coach KB? Answer truthfully...

PP, I was only referring to "looking at the box" and "looking at the bar".

I can guarantee you that you HAVE to look at the box at some point in time. Not ALL the time, but at least GLANCE at it to know that your pole-butt will hit it. Ditto with the bar (but to NOT hit it) - unless you clear it by a mile.

For these 2 situations, my honest answer is that no one - not even myself "back in the day" - would heed his advice.

Now as far as all his other advice, if he was my coach instead of Ken Shannon, then yes, as a gullible, impressionable young vaulter, I'd take his advice .. unfortunately. I certainly agree with you on that! (But you misunderstood my context.)

Actually, the situation is even worse than the author passing out poor advice over his website. The website is used to promote his vids and camps. And maybe he still coaches for a university or club (I don't know - he might be retired). For sure, he's passing out this same kind of advice thru those mediums. Come to think of it, I listened to one of his vids a couple months ago, and I thought he was doing the PV community a disservice then. I'm surprised that Mark Strawderman or Larry Bartels hasn't set him straight.

I would be willing to discuss this with the author, if he's willing to discuss it with me. In fact, he should join this forum and debate this issue with all of us! After all, his reputation is at stake!

Please consider the liklihood that he will be reading this thread. Treat your remarks about his theories on pole vaulting as if you're speaking directly to him. This is a serious topic that should be discussed with him diplomatically.

Kirk