Pushing the pole as a way to make really heavy poles work?

[rainbowgirl28]

So I moved last summer, and will be coaching at the local HS this spring. I inventoried their poles last spring and here is the series for 13'+ poles...

13'140 Rocket (2004)
13'140 (probably more like a 145) Fibersport (1997, black pultruded pole VERY HEAVY)
13'150 (probably more like a 155) Fibersport (same as above)
14'145 Spirit
14'165 Spirit
14'3175 Altius (6.4 flex, not sure if they still rate this as 175)
14'180 Skypole (probably more like a 185 but I would have to have them reflex it to be sure)


I have one vaulter returning. Freshman boy who went 10' last year with minimal coaching. He is short and wrestles, head coach says he is pretty quick.

So I am thinking those 13' poles are going to be a crucial part of his progression. But it's hard to communicate how HEAVY those Fibersport poles are unless you have used one. They're not wrapped like all modern poles are, they are pultruded fiberglass, like a really thick crossbar. The walls are at least 1/4" thick. The carry weight is tremendous, and I anticipate there being problems if the vaulter goes from carrying the Rocket to carrying a Fibersport which probably has a carry weight at least twice as heavy.

I am not sure if I can get other poles to replace these, and I am hesitant to try until I actually start coaching and know more about this vaulter. I can make a strong argument to the booster club to buy a pole or two because the school has not purchased poles since 2004, but they also have almost no girls poles (10'8 110, 11'100 Fibersport, and 11'150) so I'd rather spend money there. Fortunately I own a few of my own poles in the 11'6-12'6 range, so the girls aren't screwed, but there will still be gaps. And of course there is that gap between the 14'145 and 14'165...

Anyway, I am wondering if I should just plan on starting the season with this boy pushing the pole (but still working on the run and carry during pole runs, and only using the heavy poles), then go to carrying the pole when he gets to the point of being able to use the bigger poles and longer runs?

If we only had heavy poles to use, it wouldn't be an issue, but I think that when carrying the pole, transitioning from a really light pole to a REALLY heavy one is going to cause problems more often that not. Not to mention the difference in mandrel sizes.

[Robert schmitt]

Your thinking is good. I would wait and see what you get. If this guy has a horrible plant and carry you may want to have him pushing the pole anyways until you develop him more. Just be flexible and ready to make adjustments for what he presents you with. Some vaulters are mentally strong enough that the difference in carry weight won't effect them. If the pole drop is truly free the carry weight of the pole should not impact the run or plant. The bending characteristic from the rocket to fibersport to the spirit may be a bigger issue.

[souleman]

Find out what he jumped on last year and start with that pole. My guess is (I have no experience with the Fibersports) that he would probably have better luck going from the Rocket to that first Spirit than to one of the Fibersports. He'll just have a foot more sticking out the back. If he's a quick, springy little dude and he's jumping 10 feet he should be able to drive that 14 footer to vertical without the benefit of a bend. It's too bad you don't have a club out there that rents poles like we have here with Flight Deck Athletics. As to push or not, you're the coach and you have had some pretty good results with it as well as Masters vaulter Trevor Richards (15 something at Drake last year) so I would say you decide. Even though we'd like to take a cookie cutter and cut out the exact same "cookie" from the dough we call our vaulters, we realize we have to adapt (to a certain extent) to the athletes strengths and weaknesses. Early part of the year? Try 'em all. Maybe even one or two of your poles if he is under the weight. Good luck......and start planting that seed with the boosters.he he ........Later............Mike

[rainbowgirl28]

Early part of the year? Try 'em all. Maybe even one or two of your poles if he is under the weight. Good luck......and start planting that seed with the boosters.he he ........Later............Mike

Yeah I met with the head coach and found out there was a booster club meeting that evening... I was there and am now volunteered to work at the crab feed next weekend. That's their big fundraiser.

The head coach had no idea what pole he used last year (my money is on the 13'140 Rocket) but I will try to find out what he used and what he weighs.

She also mentioned one of the poles might be borrowed from another school, so I had better get to the bottom of that!!

[vcpvcoach]

I feel your pain. When started at the school five years ago, I had five useable poles.

13 170 rocket
14 184 essx
14-6 184 essx
13 165 spirit
12 125 black rocket

Plus a training pole, a cut 13 190 pacer and a 13 135 yellow catapole with half a label.

Mind you, the school I left in California had over 40 poles, all of which were less than five years old.

What I did was come up with a five year plan for buying poles. My current school will not let us earn money to buy poles. It's a private school, the students paid tuition so all equipment must be purchased through the school bugdet. So, I set up my plan for five poles a year over five years. I started with 12 footers on the 10's. 120, 130, 140 150, and 160. I figured that they would work for both boys and girls. The next year we bought the 13 foot series. The next year, we bought the 5's in between as they related to the needs of my vaulters. And so on.

Then, I scheduled a fifteen minute meeting with the AD on how the pole vault works, why we need the poles, and how buying these pole made it safer for the athletes. (I did mention that all the poles cost less than the helmets the football team uses and that the pole do not need to be recertified every year like helmets. The AD is the head football coach. I couldn't help my self.)

Last season, I took the first vaulter, a girl, to the State meet. She place 16th. This year, knock on wood-cross my fingers, I will return that girl and will take the first boy down State.

I know that my commitment to the school and the plan I set up got me the poles. I do take a bit of grief from the AD who always jokes that I'm the most expensive pole vault coach he knows but, I can come back with, "yeah, but you never had a vaulter compete down State before."

Schools look at the bottom line when looking to spend money but I also look to results. I don't need to give you any coaching advice because I know there are more qualified coaches on this board for that. Just lay out your plans for making your athletes better and the school will hopefully respond.

Also, get to know the coaches around you. Most will lend to a pole or two if they are no using them. If you were closer, I would.

Good luck.

[rainbowgirl28]

vcpvcoach, that is pretty much my exact situation (leaving a school with a ton of poles). Fortunately some of the poles are mine personally, so the girls won't be completely screwed. Right now they have:
10'8 110 Spirit (and I personally think the 10'8 Spirits are practically worthless for HSers because the max handhold is only 10'2)
11' 100 Fibersport (another one of those black poles)
11' 140 Ms Stic (so really a 150 by today's scale)

I hadn't thought much about getting any athletes to State, but this school is small (same classification as my last school) and they are in a pretty weak district. Last year it took 11' for boys and 7'6 for girls to make it. So maybe I could get an athlete to State... of course my bigger challenge is the fact that last year they only had 9 girls that ever competed in a meet in any event. So my first challenge on the girls side is to figure out how to get some warm bodies to show up to practice...

On the plus side, although they only had one HS boy PV last year, they did have three 7th graders. On the downside, the middle school switched leagues and the new league probably doesn't have it in their meets.

[dj]

good morning,

i have never considered "pushing", sliding the pole on the runway, a method or tech nique to be taught or used at any level.. maybe for a drill that is only a fee steps...

this method goes against the "free drop" of the pole incouraged for the best speed and posture..

i does work against the correct "posture" (hip shift/aliegnment) for a correct free takeoff.

vaulters i have seen using this, except the elite, have all stretched and reach for the takeoff and the back of the box... that does not lead to a "jump" or "UP" impluse.....

i would rather see proper pole carry.. from 6 lefts (12 steps) or more with a blanced "drop", short takeoff step and a high plant....

dj

[souleman]

DJ, we all would like to see what you want to see as well. That's the "cookie cutter" approach I was talking about earlier. That being said, if this guy is shorter, chances are he won't become an elite vaulter. On the other hand he could become a very important part of the team as a point getter. Therefore Becca has to get him off the ground and effective ASAP. Fixing things along the way. Something that's nearly impossible to do in the 4 or so months she has "his interest" (in other words the season). So she can't really disregard any method that might help the kid (or kids) be more successful sooner. I've got a video of Trevor Richards that can despell your arguement about the inability for a free takeoff with the push. I'm not kidding you, he was almost a foot off the ground before the pole hit the back of the box. His arms were up and as Bubba calls it pressing upward. He rotated around the shoulders and just shot off the top. It was pretty impressive. So, do I agree with you? Absolutely! But what is technically desireable might not always be physically possible. So I'm back to recommending to Becca, "try it! You will.......or will not, like it". She won't know till she crosses that bridge. Later...............Mike

[dj]

hey mike,

i believe you completely... and i have seen it done... but with more experienced/elite type vaulters...

the beginners i have seen were all stretching the steps.. and they may have been allowed or were going to stretch no matter the technique they were using..

i would just encourage.. posture, tight steps and explosive, high takeoff...

dj

[rainbowgirl28]

I was at club practice today (about 90 minutes from where I live) and asked a kid in the leave if he knew which pole my vaulter had used (the head coach had no idea). My money was on the 13'140 Rocket, but he said the pink pole, which would be an 11'140 (really a 150) Ms Stic!

I am pretty impressed this kid went 10' on an 11' pole with no clue what he was doing. Unless they were borrowing a pink pole from another school... I jumped 9'9 in high school on basically the exact same pole.

Anyway, I don't know if he'll even get to the 13' poles this year, but hopefully!

~~~
For some background... my first year at my last HS, I had the freshman girls pushing the pole. There was a junior girl with two years experience who carried (badly). We worked on her carry that whole season but saw little improvement, her PR went from 8'6 to 9'.

The next year, the freshmen (now sophomores), were all carrying the pole, and my junior (now senior) girl was still struggling with it. Her pole drop and plant were just awful. We worked really hard on it that first month or so. I pulled her out of PE a few times (it is nice when the PE teacher is the head track coach!) and spent hours doing walking plants, pole runs, slide box, etc. It just wasn't clicking. Finally one day I was just thinking out loud and mentioned that maybe we should just have her slide the pole. I didn't think she'd go for it (I wasn't even considering it that seriously), but she shrugged her shoulders and said sure. I think she was willing to do whatever it took to beat the younger girls

So we switched to pushing the pole, she picked it up quickly (she'd seen the other girls doing it the previous season), and ended up jumping 9'6 (and looking sooo much better). I think she could have gotten 10' if we'd had another week or two. She blew through poles like crazy at State. I never could get any of those kids to practice in the summer... *sigh*
~~~

So looking ahead to the future, I think a lot of it will depend on what sort of bad habits my one returning vaulter has picked up. If he carries and plants the pole decently. I am not as inclined to have him push, but if there are a lot of bad habits to correct, I may choose to have him push for awhile on the runway while we fix the pole carry on the track with pole runs.

I will try and find if anyone has video of him, that would help me a lot with figuring out what direction we need to go.

On the plus side, this district is not very tough. Last year it took 11' and 7'6 to get to State, might be a little tougher this year, hopefully I can make it a lot tougher. I need to check out the girls basketball and cheer squads and see if I can recruit a few vaulters. It's tough when you don't work at the school and don't have regular contact with any of the kids.

[rainbowgirl28]

hey mike,

i believe you completely... and i have seen it done... but with more experienced/elite type vaulters...

the beginners i have seen were all stretching the steps.. and they may have been allowed or were going to stretch no matter the technique they were using..

i would just encourage.. posture, tight steps and explosive, high takeoff...

dj

Stretching the steps is not directly correlated to pushing the pole. Most beginners stretch their steps, especially when they have coaches who don't understand the run/pole drop/mid mark. Pushing the pole takes the pole drop out of the equation. I do believe that in a perfect world, carrying the pole is ideal, but most high school vaulters are far from ideal. If the coach has them running from the wrong spot, they're pretty much screwed either way.

If anything, I think a vaulter with a bad pole drop and plant will be less likely to stretch their steps if they switch to pushing the pole. Pushing the pole takes the pole drop out of the equation, so it often helps vaulters who do it poorly. But ideally they will continue to fix it through pole runs, etc, and return to carrying the pole.

In the high school world, many kids are unathletic, slow learners, and have short attention spans, and you have a very short season. Pushing the pole can be a great way to get beginners over the bar early in the season without forcing them to reinforce bad habits because they haven't figured out the whole pole carry/drop/plant yet. It's also very safe as long as the facilities are decent, less likely to see them miss the box because of a late plant.


I haven't decided yet if I will have all of my beginners carry or push the pole. I've had success with both, and I lean toward the idea of having them carry unless they are struggling.

[rainbowgirl28]

LOL so I was going through my personal inventory, and I actually own a 13'150 and 155 Spirit. I also just bought a used 13'6 155. So I think we'll be able to avoid using those black heavy poles except for pole runs.

Still a good discussion to have though.