BTB

[altius]

I would like to see this topic come back on track because if there is any one element of technique which all young vaulters want to master it is the MAGIC ROCKBACK - or what we prefer now to call THE INVERSION.

I believe that somehow we must convince young vaulters that it is not possible to simply graft a rockback onto a technique with major limitations in the run, plant, take off and whip/swing. All of those elements must be first mastered and then the inversion will happen almost naturally.

The young athletes shown in BTB all managed to invert pretty well without ever being told to push,pull or 'row' at any time. To make the point I am hoping SWMBO can find the time to post some stills I sent to her to put up on my behalf.

If there is a secret, it is to get a lot of energy into the vaulter/pole system with a take off and whipping swing and then redirect some of it - after the body passes the chord of the pole - by flexing at the hips - fixing them and then rolling the pelvis up. This can all be learned pretty quickly on a high bar.

[Mecham]

You are in luck! I recieved those pictures and i am hosting them on my site. I am in the proccess of converting them to jpeg. so you can see them on the board. But for now, i will give you the links so you can look at them for now. You'll need a good quicktime to view them, but yeah....

http://www.mechamcompany.com/jared/images/Chris.dv
http://www.mechamcompany.com/jared/images/Jana.dv
http://www.mechamcompany.com/jared/images/Lauren1.dv
http://www.mechamcompany.com/jared/images/Lauren2.dv
http://www.mechamcompany.com/jared/images/PatrickJesser.dv
http://www.mechamcompany.com/jared/images/Tom4.dv
http://www.mechamcompany.com/jared/images/WendyYoung.dv

[altius]

Sorry Mecham - They all come as gobbledegook to me - but hey we are upside down!

Hope other folk can see them - and that you can manage to get them inverted for the rest of us - on the bottom?? of the planet!

[cdmilton]

Sorry Mecham - They all come as gobbledegook to me - but hey we are upside down!

Hope other folk can see them - and that you can manage to get them inverted for the rest of us - on the bottom?? of the planet!

You just need to open them up in quicktime. That should do the trick.

[Mecham]

Sorry Mecham - They all come as gobbledegook to me - but hey we are upside down!

Hope other folk can see them - and that you can manage to get them inverted for the rest of us - on the bottom?? of the planet!

Right click the link and click "Save Linked File As.." or "Save Targeted File As..." whatever it says, then open it in quicktime from where you saved it.

[dj]

agapit

As a matter of fact, I do not know anyone who focuses on this KEY element. I think even Bubka in his time intuitively understood it, but I am not aware of the program that focused on this element specifically.

i have to disagree..

swinging from the take-off goes back to at least the 70's here in the us

mike tully/tom tellez.. earl bell/guy kochel and dave roberts..

when i first timed bubka, in the early 80's based on peter mc's data..from TO to maximum heigth of mass.. he had 1.47 sec for an 19-8 vault..

tully talked with tim mack.. specificlly about that element in my front yard in 1995.. i have it on tape...

t-mack had 1.45 sec on his 2004 trials 19-4 jump.. from take-off to max heigth above the bar..

that means with a grip of 16-8 (bubka) higher than most vaulters he was swinging and covering more distance in a shorter period of time.. "energy"

most world class vaulters of than time period did not get under 1.50sec

tully and i and earl were the only american vaulters i know from that time period (80's) that was trying to swing .. from the ground... most were trying to "delay".. we were critcized for our methods ....o' well... hehehe

high school boys jumping 15 feet were slower than 1.50...

this data told us that a fast swing was an important element to creating the energy to jump high...

on my chart you will notice that as a vaulter jumps higher..he/she grips higher and the distance between grip and height above grip increases!!!

this is because of a longer radius in a shorter time.. like a giant swing.. the faster you swing the easier it is to get to vertical above the bar..

RUN>>>PLANT>>>SWING

why does the run have to be correct and not stretching? because you can't have a "free take off" while stretching the steps.. the mass is going down not up.. and that in it'self will delay the swing.. not what you want

later

dj

ps.. how do you invert??? swing!.. you don't need "gut" muscles.. or any muscle..swing.. mary lou at 90lbs could create as much force as mike tully on a giant swing..

of course to swing you have to have pole speed and the proper take-off

[Carolina Extreme]

..........when i first timed bubka, in the early 80's based on peter mc's data..from TO to maximum heigth of mass.. he had 1.47 sec for an 19-8 vault..

tully talked with tim mack.. specificlly about that element in my front yard in 1995.. i have it on tape...

t-mack had 1.45 sec on his 2004 trials 19-4 jump.. from take-off to max heigth above the bar..

that means with a grip of 16-8 (bubka) higher than most vaulters he was swinging and covering more distance in a shorter period of time.. "energy" .......

this data told us that a fast swing was an important element to creating the energy to jump high...

on my chart you will notice that as a vaulter jumps higher..he/she grips higher and the distance between grip and height above grip increases!!!

this is because of a longer radius in a shorter time.. like a giant swing.. the faster you swing the easier it is to get to vertical above the bar..

RUN>>>PLANT>>>SWING

why does the run have to be correct and not stretching? because you can't have a "free take off" while stretching the steps.. the mass is going down not up.. and that in it'self will delay the swing.. not what you want

later

dj

ps.. how do you invert??? swing!.. you don't need "gut" muscles.. or any muscle..swing.. mary lou at 90lbs could create as much force as mike tully on a giant swing..

of course to swing you have to have pole speed and the proper take-off

This is a GREAT post to soak in. Read it, think about it, chew on it for a while. This is a wonderful explanation of why things work the way they do in an efficient vault.... "If" you can grasp what DJ is saying. This entire thread is great. Thanks for all the input from everyone, for everyone. Rusty

[agapit]

agapit

As a matter of fact, I do not know anyone who focuses on this KEY element. I think even Bubka in his time intuitively understood it, but I am not aware of the program that focused on this element specifically.

i have to disagree..

swinging from the take-off goes back to at least the 70's here in the us

mike tully/tom tellez.. earl bell/guy kochel and dave roberts..

The fact that the shorter times must be achieved in the off-the-ground phase is a known fact, however, I can imagine that people were giving you a hard time in the 70s with this idea. I am talking about further minimizing the time using free takeoff and left arm pull model. You see one cannot pull fast enough if one is not using a free takeoff…

[Carolina Extreme]

The fact that the shorter times must be achieved in the off-the-ground phase is a known fact, however, I can imagine that people were giving you a hard time in the 70s with this idea. I am talking about further minimizing the time using free takeoff and left arm pull model. You see one cannot pull fast enough if one is not using a free takeoff…

Get the pole moving fast and your body moving faster. As I say it (jokingly of course), "you have to have more momenimum than the pole." LOL And as "DJ" has said, "race the top of the pole to the back of the pit." If you are executing the vault well, you will have some pull/weight on the bottom arm (it would be impossible to have 100% weight/pressure on top arm... unless you cut the bottom arm off). I just don't think it is on purpose that most vaulters pull on the left arm (right handed vaulter). We work hard to get athletes to not pull on the top arm at takeoff. Suggesting pull this one, don't pull that one is liable to send sparks flying out of a vaulters ears... from mental meltdown.

I like having my thought process stimulated, to really think it through. If you understand what you are trying to accomplish and understand why things work the way they do... cause and affect... then you are well on your way.

Thanks Guys!

Rusty

[altius]

All good stuff! This particular debate is why I introduced the term WHIP in BTB instead of 'swing' - which as you will recall replaced "Hang/drive" - which of course reflects a passive phase.

While coaches can talk about 'distance travelled in less time', using the word "WHIP" makes it clear to the athlete that you should be trying to accelerate the take off leg to the chord of the pole as fast as you can once it is in position to do so. It confirms why that initial flexion of the take off leg - even if minimal - and subsequent kicking action of the lower leg is so important in initiating that acceleration. However I suggest that you have to be careful about suggesting this notion to athletes who have a poor take off -especially those who take off under and never 'finish the take off'.

As Agapit suggests, an athlete who does not take off free will never be in a position to set the take off leg up for that whip. So if they try to swing into inversion off the ground they may/will find themselves coming up short of the pad. In fact I would suggest that a take off which is under and 'unfinished' combined with a swing off the gorund is a recipe for disaster.

As always the best example I have seen of this movement pattern is the side/rear view of Bubka's 6.01 in Athens where the whole movement and the acceleration involved is obvious.

What I find really interesting is that it appears that all of these ideas were known to US coaches 20 years ago or more . If that is the case the question has to be asked is "Why did they not become common knowledge and why have they had to wait until now to be widely promulgated??

[Mecham]

As Agapit suggests, an athlete who does not take off free will never be in a position to set the take off leg up for that whip. So if they try to swing into inversion off the ground they may/will find themselves coming up short of the pad. In fact I would suggest that a take off which is under and 'unfinished' combined with a swing off the gorund is a recipe for disaster.

I've seen that a lot and it scares me everytime...

If that is the case the question has to be asked is "Why did they not become common knowledge and why have they had to wait until now to be widely promulgated??

Ha ha ha!!

[dj]

allan

first... a vaulter needs to have the "steps" under the body and can not takeoff or plant properly with "streched" steps..

why was the info not used???

coaches and athletes ego!!!

the general vault community told guy kockel that earl would set a world record if "he would change his methods" !!! he set a world record using the methods that have been described in these pages.

tom tellez and tully have tried to explain these things, as well as dick railback... only to get "blasted' for being cocky..

dave roberts used these methods in 1976.. and explained, at the florida pole vault camp, (at tske off) high plant....take off out.....hit it hard.. and swing off the top..

tom hintihaus said.. "hit the take off... bend the pole into a high bar... and do a giant off the top...

in the early 80's several coaches with clot.. said you need to delay at the takeoff and push the pole with the lead arm...

that was the model almost everyone after bell and tully used...

but was wrong.........now vaulters are getting mixed messages...

it the physics...the numbers just emphsis the physics..

dj