4 step mid?

[Capt Caveman]

I cannot follow something that is unsupproted by all the other reseach available. Those who know WHY will always be victorious over those who only know HOW.

A quick google search and:
From http://www.gillathletics.com/articles/news120202.htm
The reality of sprinting is that we cannot have a maximum stride length and stride rate and be our fastest. What is needed is a maximum stride rate with an optimal stride length.

Maximal stride rate is how fast we can produce one stride, or in the case of the 100 meters about 50 of them. Stride rate is dependent upon a number of factors including, strength and mechanics. In order to produce greater stride rates one must be able to execute the correct stride cycle as fast as possible and with optimal length. Optimal stride length is one that allows the athlete to execute the correct stride pattern in as short a time frame as possible.

Power point slide from Shiela Burrell (sprints hurdles and jumps coach Georgetown University)
http://www.mstca.org/Clinic%202009/Sprint%20Power%20Point.ppt#263,8,Slide%208

It has been exceptionally easy to dispute this chart. That is not my goal but that is the reality. This is why I was asking for the research. So I could leave it off this board and read it for myself and form my own opinion. I am still open to the idea but where is the support for this other than "drink the water" as you put it. I cannot just drink the water and suggest that there is a lot of good research out there. I know I am over thinking this but the idea is compelling Fix the run use the chart, the problem is "if it sounds too good to be ture it probably is" and this one size fits all chart with no one willing to support it in any way seems too good to be true. I just want to know how the human factor noted in all the other research i have read so far is not applicaple to this chart.

I am not trying to pick a fight, but I cannot believe that anyone would follow research blindly so I must assume there is more to this than just the chart.

[souleman]

I know you're not picking a fight. On the other hand I'm wondering if the chart was called "Petrov's Mid Mark Chart" rather than "DJ's Mid Mark Chart" would you be so inquisitive. I know you're just trying to get answers and direction that frankly I don't think you will find on this forum. Those of us that use it.....use it! We do so because it works for us and our vaulters. Ladyvolscoach at one time was a non believer as well. He got a hold of it basically to disprove the thing and after working with his vaulters he couldn't. He does the dartfish thing and he sent me one (I wish I could find it, but it disappeared when my computer crashed).It's a video program that you can overlap two videos. It showed two vaulters, different heights jumping the same bar. I was amazed that when both vaulters hit the 6 step mark they "joined" together and looked like one vaulter. That showed me, and coach Job that one size does fit all. Are there adjustments? Well of course. Problem with that is if you get too far away from the "chart" you're diminishing the effectiveness of it. It's your choice. Use it or don't . As I said earlier, I use it and it helps me coach and my vaulters jump better because when they are at the top of the runway they have the confidence to know their steps are on and if that's there they are more confident with their jump. Good Luck................Mike

[Capt Caveman]

I am inqusitive by nature so yes, I would, but that really is not the point in all of this. One person on this thread said that the chart was based on a 6'1" vaulter (DJ told them). That makes sense and if this is true how do you adjust for the varying human factors using a chart that was developed with a 6'1" male? However others have suggested it is a one size fits all chart and that does not make sense (I have not even brought up the female vs male aspect of the chart and how to adjust for those differances). No one seems to dispute there is such a thing as over striding and that doing so is detrimental but this chart seems to ignroe this possibility. There is conflicting information and I see DJ weigh in but it still leave the questions unanswered. I do not like to waste time on things in the real world that I cannot understand the WHY and only use the HOW especially if the how does not make sense to me. Not to mention I have yet to locate any other research that supports it anywhere. Because I said so was no longer an answer to any of my questions the day I moved out of my parents house (a long time ago).

Lets take a different approach, since no one seems to have the research that this chart was developed off of what are the results of the use of it?
If you applied this chart to your athletes in the real world, as many of you seem to have done, how close (what is the variance) to the #'s are your athletes. Have you had anyone succeed in spite of the chart? Is anyone dead on every # most of the time and do they meet "result" the chart suggests. Does it work the same for both your men/boys and women/girls? If you have made adjustments what are they?

[dj]

hye

the 6'1 vaulter height was to determine a takeoff point only.... had nothing to do with the stride length and frequency numbers (6 step mark) on the chart..

lot of info is getting over lapped and mixed....

i think this thread discussion...needs to be moved to the Advanced Mid chart thread..

i have some speed studies and info i'll try and use to get to the "truth"...

in the mean time why don't everyone, while they are coaching or when they are viewing the vault.. check the 6 step mark for themselves... see where the vaulters who you think ran and jumped their best hit on the "MID" xxx no hit on the 6th step from takeoff an dhow it compares to grip and vault height.. don't count the ones that "over stride " and still make the bar..

compare the ones you consider good run and pretty goodtechnique..

come back and post the data..

be honest and real..

dj

ps start posting on the MID Chart thread under Advanced.. thanks

pss.. i fail to see where you have disputed the chart??? or why that was ypour goal.

[KYLE ELLIS]

I think a mid mark chart can be good and I think we need something less concrete than the current chart. I would also like to put out there that I would love to see some sort of actual scientific/ Biomechanical testing done on this chart. I want to see DJ take his great idea and keep researching and developing data, to me right now it is just based on patterns.

Here are my top reasons why a concrete chart does not work
1- Height differences, even though height may have nothing to do with speed it does have an affect on were the optimal takeoff is.
2- Pole carry and tip drop- I have noticed that vaulters that drop the pole correctly take significantly shorter strides than those who do not. If the pole is not at the right height before beginning the plant then vaulter will have to a) slow down or b) lean back or c) collapse onto the takeoff step... Maybe all of them. Even if the vaulter has a correct mid if doesn't drop the pole correctly he will either be under or slow down I GARUNTEE IT!!!
3- Takeoff efficency- Two vaulters same height, same mid-mark are vaulting and both run 9mps at takeoff. Vaulter A has superb takeoff mechanics and takeoffs from the correct mark. Vaulter B has a low and rigid plant and takeoff and is looking down at the box. Can both vaulters grip the same height??? No!!! Vaulter B should need more speed and a further out mid.
Bubka has the most efficent takeoff I have ever see, so simple logic tells me that he would need less speed to move in a 5.18m grip than other vaulter's who are less effecient. So whats the point on working on your takeoff mechanics if this rigid chart was correct?? No matter how much you improve your takeoff mechanics it wont allow you to grip higher unless you run faster and can move your mid back. To be honest most of the time the mid on the chart is too far out for me after changing the way I takeoff. Another example 2 long jumpers running at 10mps at takeoff, both are the correct distance from the board. One has a signifacantly better takeoff than the othe and is much stronger elastically speaking... Do they both jump the same distance? No.

I think the chart would have to be somewhat individualized with your atheletes, I do think DJ is on to something with the stride patterns etc... But I think the chart is too rigid. Like i said I would love to see some scientific backing to all of this.

[KYLE ELLIS]

hye

the 6'1 vaulter height was to determine a takeoff point only.... had nothing to do with the stride length and frequency numbers (6 step mark) on the chart..

lot of info is getting over lapped and mixed....

i think this thread discussion...needs to be moved to the Advanced Mid chart thread..

i have some speed studies and info i'll try and use to get to the "truth"...

in the mean time why don't everyone, while they are coaching or when they are viewing the vault.. check the 6 step mark for themselves... see where the vaulters who you think ran and jumped their best hit on the "MID" xxx no hit on the 6th step from takeoff an dhow it compares to grip and vault height.. don't count the ones that "over stride " and still make the bar..

compare the ones you consider good run and pretty goodtechnique..

come back and post the data..

be honest and real..

dj

ps start posting on the MID Chart thread under Advanced.. thanks

pss.. i fail to see where you have disputed the chart??? or why that was ypour goal.

Too far out for me and one other vaulter.. Too far under for the shorter girls vaulters.

[dj]

good morning,

there still seems to be some 'confusion"

I’m not sure if “concrete” means rigid in that I did not or have not considered there is no Plus or minus margins in the numbers.. there are “margins’ because of numerous human factors.. speed, technique and yes the takeoff will vary based on physical reach height.

I never want or wanted any of you or your vaulters to take off under or a foot out. I want everyone to take off “out”, “free” with the pole high or whatever term you consider perfect…

My chart is a “MID” (6 stride check point) to GRIP correlation. Takeoff point is not a factor. Don’t look at the chart for that number. That point is solely determined by you, your coach and your physical characteristics, and philosophy on the take off position.

I have said numerous times the takeoff points listed on the chart is an “average” and is of no consequence to the speed needed to move a curtain grip.

This was created from a formula and not from a “collection of data”. Of course I had to compare some ‘empirical’ data to form a hypotheses and create the formula. This chart has been “checked” for 30 years and I see no reason to “do more study” or review my numbers other than accept practical “feed back” as to it’s validity.

Much of what was said on this thread confirmed (posture, frequency,etc) what is accomplished with the chart.

Bubka has/had a great takeoff.. part of that was being where he needed to be 6 steps from the takeoff... he has posture, rhythm and usually a good pole drop.. but he also 'contoled" the pole drop with the right hand.. which allowed him to slow or speed the drop as needed.. you can't do that if you are gripping the pole incorrectly and dropping or carrying the pole incorrectly with the left hand and don't keep the wrist higher than the elbow during drop and plant....

Two vaulters of different heights will have to takeoff at a different distance from the box if they hit “exactly” the same mid and are gripping the same on the pole. But both CAN have the same speed. It’s just that the frequencies are slightly different.

The math I did for Becca’s one foot difference at the takeoff with the same mid, showed that to run 7.1 meters per second with a curtain “mid” / 6 steps took 1.48 seconds. Shorten that distance by one foot at the takeoff but with the same “mid”/ 6 steps, the shorter vaulter would have to cover their distance in 1.44 seconds compared to 1.48 seconds to have 7.1 mps.

I think every vaulter will have a problem of being within .04 seconds timed over 6 strides on every one of their runs down the runway…

When you add in some vaulters can “out jump” the chart, have more height above grip.. etc..

My chart is a (6 step chart) “MID” to grip ratio/correlation… and since it is stride length and frequency based it helps you improve posture, your running technique, pole drop rhythm (if your grip and pole carry positions are correct) and allows you to increase the frequency and have a correct takeoff and penultimate (jump impulse) action.

What more could you ask of any “training” aid ever devised.


dj